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<PRE>
1
1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS
2 EASTERN DIVISION
3 MOTHER and FATHER on their own )
behalf and as guardian of the )
4 estate of their son, JOHNNY DOE, )
or R.G., a minor, )
5 )
Plaintiffs, )
6 )
vs. ) No. 99 C 3259
7 )
JAMES CASSIDY #20207, ALLEN ) Judge Lefkow
8 NATHANIEL #20443, SGT. STANLEY )
ZABORAC #1139, SGT. DANIEL )
9 BRANNIGAN #1469, COMMANDING )
YOUTH LT. K. BROWN #202, DET. )
10 PAUL JACKSON #20932, YOUTH INV. )
VINCENT JAMES #40321, YOUTH INV. )
11 ANTHONY POWELL #40060, SGT. )
NELSON #1931, DET. DOLORES MYLES )
12 #20242, DET. SAMUEL BROWN #20826,)
DET. DEVON ANDERSON #5114, )
13 COMMANDER DANIEL GIBSON, YOUTH )
INV. CHARLES BOWEN #40225, and )
14 the CITY OF CHICAGO, )
)
15 Defendants. )
16 The deposition of TERRY G. HILLARD, pursuant
17 to notice and pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil
18 Procedure for the United States District Courts
19 pertaining to the taking of depositions, taken before
20 Carmella T. Fagan, C.S.R., R.P.R., Notary Public
21 within and for the County of Cook and State of
22 Illinois, at 3510 South Michigan Avenue, Fifth Floor,
23 in the City of Chicago, Cook County, Illinois,
24 commencing at 1:10 p.m. on the 17th day of May, 2001.
2
1 There were present during the taking
2 of this deposition the following counsel:
3
THE PEOPLES LAW OFFICE,
4 (1180 North Milwaukee Avenue
Chicago, Illinois 60622)
5 BY: MR. G. FLINT TAYLOR
On behalf of the Plaintiffs;
6
THE PEOPLES LAW OFFICE,
7 (1180 North Milwaukee Avenue
Chicago, Illinois 60622)
8 BY: MS. JAN SUSLER
On behalf of the Plaintiffs;
9
SHEFSKY & FROELICH,
10 (444 North Michigan Avenue
Chicago, Illinois 60611)
11 BY: MR. MICHAEL SHEEHAN
On behalf of the City of Chicago;
12
SHEFSKY & FROELICH,
13 (444 North Michigan Avenue
Chicago, Illinois 60611)
14 BY: MR. BRIAN L. CROWE
On behalf of the City of Chicago;
15
ASSISTANT CORPORATION COUNSEL,
16 (Individual Defense Litigation
Division
17 30 North LaSalle Street
Room 900
18 Chicago, Illinois 60602)
BY: MS. EILEEN E. ROSEN
19 On behalf of the
Individual Defendants.
20
CITY OF CHICAGO, DEPARTMENT OF POLICE,
21 (General Counsel to the Superintendent
3510 South Michigan Avenue
22 Chicago, Illinois 60653
BY: MS. KAREN A. ROWAN
23 On behalf of Terry G. Hillard.
24
3
1 I N D E X
2 WITNESS: PAGE
3 TERRY G. HILLARD
4 Examination by Mr. Taylor: 4
5
6
7 E X H I B I T S
8
Plaintiffs' No. 298 22
9 Plaintiffs' No. 299 42
Plaintiffs' No. 300 107
10 Plaintiffs' No. 301 140
Plaintiffs' No. 302 146
11 Plaintiffs' No. 303 146
Plaintiffs' No. 304 149
12 Plaintiffs' No. 305 171
Plaintiffs' No. 306 184
13 Plaintiffs' No. 307 219
Plaintiffs' No. 308 227
14
15
16
CERTIFIED QUESTIONS
17
None.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
4
1 (Witness sworn.)
2 TERRY G. HILLARD,
3 called as a witness herein, having been first
4 duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
5 EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. TAYLOR:
7 Q Okay. Could you state your name and
8 spell your last name for the record,
9 A Terry G. Hillard, H-i-l-l-a-r-d.
10 Q Superintendent Hillard, are you the
11 superintendent of police of the Chicago Police
12 Department?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q And for how long have you held that
15 post?
16 A Approximately three years and two
17 months.
18 Q Okay. So that would be approximately
19 March, February or March, of --
20 A February the 18th, 1998, is when I was
21 promoted by the mayor.
22 Q Okay. How long have you been with the
23 Chicago Police Department?
24 A I'm in my 34th year now.
5
1 Q Okay. Prior to becoming the
2 superintendent, were you the chief of detectives?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Okay. How long did you hold that
5 post?
6 A As I remember, it was close to
7 probably about 25, 26 months, somewhere right in
8 there.
9 Q Okay. Did you have deputy chiefs
10 working for you?
11 A Yes, I did.
12 Q Was one of those deputy chiefs Richard
13 Frangella?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Which field group was he in charge of?
16 Do you recall?
17 A His name is John Frangella.
18 Q I'm sorry. Do you remember which
19 field group he was in charge of?
20 A As I remember, he was in Field Group
21 A, the south side.
22 Q Now, who was in charge of Field Group
23 B under your command?
24 A As I remember, I believe Deputy Chief
6
1 Maurer, I believe.
2 Q That's M-a-u-r-e-r?
3 A Yes.
4 Q All right. Now, did you answer to a
5 deputy superintendent as chief of detectives?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And who did you answer to?
8 A Deputy Superintendent Michael Malone.
9 Q He was the deputy in charge of what
10 services, Inspectional?
11 A Bureau of Investigative Services.
12 Q Investigative. I'm sorry. He, in
13 turn, answered to the superintendent; is that right?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q At that time was Rodriguez the
16 superintendent?
17 A Matt Rodriguez. Yes, sir.
18 Q Now, prior to the 26 months or so that
19 you spent as chief of detectives, where were you
20 assigned?
21 A Prior to that I was the deputy chief
22 of Area 2 Patrol Division, south side.
23 Q How long did you hold that post?
24 A It was close to a little over two
7
1 years, I think.
2 Q Now, did you answer to a deputy
3 superintendent in that post as well?
4 A I really answered to the chief of
5 Patrol. That was my immediate supervisor, the chief
6 of Patrol, at that time.
7 Q And who was he?
8 A It was John Cadigan.
9 Q What year did you become a Chicago
10 police officer?
11 A 11 March 1968.
12 Q And did you for a while after that
13 assume patrol -- did you go to the academy?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q How long were you in the academy?
16 A You're talking about a long time ago.
17 I think I was probably in there close to about 13, 14
18 weeks.
19 Q Okay.
20 A An approximation. I don't know exact.
21 Q What was your educational background
22 prior to coming to the police department?
23 A I had a high school education.
24 Q What high school did you graduate
8
1 from?
2 A Wendell Phillips High School.
3 Q Here in Chicago?
4 A Here in Chicago.
5 Q After you came out of the academy,
6 were you assigned to a particular police district?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Did you have particular duties at that
9 district?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q For how long and to what district were
12 you assigned?
13 A I went to the 18th District. That was
14 the old Chicago Avenue District, and I spent
15 approximately about seven, eight months there.
16 Q Did you move to other districts as a
17 patrol officer?
18 A From there I went to what we called
19 the Task Force, South Side Task Force, at 91st and
20 Cottage Grove.
21 Q Did that have different investigative
22 functions than a patrol officer?
23 A I was -- it was in Patrol. I was
24 still in Patrol.
9
1 Q How long did you stay at the Task
2 Force?
3 A I would say approximately a little
4 over two years.
5 Q All right. Then where were you
6 assigned?
7 A Then I went to -- I got, as I remember
8 -- and this is not verbatim now. As I remember, I
9 got assigned to the 7th District and then back to
10 Task Force. Then I went to the 2nd District --
11 Q Okay.
12 A -- and then went to bodyguard detail
13 with Daddio Daley.
14 Q Okay. What year was that that you
15 went to bodyguard detail?
16 A It was in the early '70s. I can only
17 tell you that.
18 Q Did at some point you make sergeant?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And when was that?
21 A Uh, that was in the early part of the
22 '80s, I believe it was, 1980, '81.
23 Q Have you ever been a detective?
24 A No, sir.
10
1 Q So when you made sergeant, were you
2 then assigned to a patrol district?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Where were you assigned?
5 A I was on the dignitary protection
6 security detail for Mayor Jane Byrne.
7 Q And then did you continue to be on
8 that detail with Mayor Washington for a while?
9 A When Mayor Washington came in, I left
10 for a period of time, but I was brought back.
11 Q Was that during the time that you went
12 to the FBI for a while or were detailed to the FBI?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q At some point did you conclude your
15 duties as being on the detail for Mayor Washington?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q What year was that?
18 A It was -- I left, going to the FBI
19 academy, in July of 1984 and went there for
20 approximately three months. It was almost three
21 months. And when I came back, I was assigned to the
22 9th District.
23 Q As a sergeant?
24 A Yes, sir.
11
1 Q And how long did you stay at the 9th
2 District?
3 A Probably about three days.
4 Q Okay. And then where were you
5 assigned?
6 A I went back to the Intelligence
7 Section.
8 Q You worked as a sergeant in the
9 Intelligence Division?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And for how long did you stay there?
12 A Approximately six and a half years.
13 Q And had you been at the Intelligence
14 Division prior to that?
15 A Just for the little time between when
16 I had left Mayor Byrne's detail and when I went back
17 to Mayor Washington's detail.
18 Q Okay. So for the six and a half years
19 that you were at the Intelligence Division, that was
20 in the late '80s? Is that when that was?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Did you have a particular assignment?
23 Did you work organized crime or some other aspect,
24 generally speaking, in the Intelligence Division?
12
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q What did you work?
3 A First I started out and I started
4 working organized crime and moved from organized
5 crime to working terrorism.
6 Q Okay. Did at some point you leave the
7 Intelligence Division?
8 A When I got promoted to lieutenant.
9 Q What year was that?
10 A That was about 1990, '91, somewhere in
11 there.
12 Q Okay. Upon leaving and becoming a
13 lieutenant, where were you assigned?
14 A I went to Gang Crimes South at 51st
15 and Wentworth as a watch commander.
16 Q All right. Were there any particular
17 youth gangs that you specialized in with regard to
18 your work at Gang Crimes?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q You dealt with all investigations as
21 to any gangs that were in Gang Crimes South? Was it
22 Gang Crimes South at that point?
23 A It was Gang Crimes South. I was a
24 watch commander in charge of the afternoon watch.
13
1 Q And for how long did you stay at Gang
2 Crimes South?
3 A Approximately four and a half months.
4 Q From there where were you assigned?
5 A I was assigned to the Narcotics
6 Division over at 35th Street.
7 Q That was, what, in 1991?
8 A It was about 1991. Yes, sir.
9 Q Were you a watch commander or a
10 commander?
11 A I was commanding officer of what we
12 call the Special Investigations. It was long-term
13 investigations, narcotics investigations.
14 Q And for how long did you remain at
15 that location as the lieutenant?
16 A I think about four, five months.
17 Q And from where -- to where were you
18 assigned after that?
19 A Right after that I was promoted to
20 commander of the 6th District, Gresham District.
21 Q Were you still a lieutenant or had you
22 made captain?
23 A No, I was still a lieutenant.
24 Q Are you a captain now?
14
1 A No, sir.
2 Q I'm sorry. You said you were sent to
3 the Gresham District?
4 A The 6th District. Yes, sir.
5 Q As the commanding officer?
6 A No, as commander.
7 Q Commander. Okay. And that was in '91
8 or '92?
9 A That was in '91.
10 Q How long did you remain the commander
11 of the 6th District?
12 A I would say probably 25, 26 months.
13 Q Was the next assignment to the
14 Detective Division or did you have an assignment in
15 between?
16 A No. The next assignment was to the
17 deputy chief of Area 2 Patrol.
18 Q From there you then went to the
19 Detective Division as the chief of detectives?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Now, in your training as a Chicago
22 police officer did you have training to become a
23 sergeant?
24 A Yes, sir.
15
1 Q Did you also have training to become a
2 lieutenant?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q In any of your training could you tell
5 us did you have any training in the questioning of
6 suspects and witnesses?
7 A Me personally?
8 Q Yes, you personally.
9 A No, sir.
10 Q And, I would take it, specifically
11 then you had no training in questioning of juveniles;
12 is that right?
13 A That's right, sir.
14 Q Were you familiar with the procedures
15 within the Chicago Police Department with regard to
16 questioning of suspects and witnesses?
17 A What do you mean?
18 MR. CROWE: At what period of time?
19 MR. TAYLOR: Well, at any period of time.
20 THE WITNESS: Now, when you say "familiar,"
21 can you be a little more specific?
22 BY MR. TAYLOR:
23 Q Well, were you conversant or did you
24 know what the procedures were within the police
16
1 department for questioning juveniles?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q All right. Do you now?
4 A To some degree. Yes, sir.
5 Q Okay. And when did you first become
6 familiar with those procedures to the degree you are
7 now familiar?
8 A Probably after the Ryan Harris
9 incident.
10 Q Okay. So --
11 MR. CROWE: I'm sorry. Could you read that
12 last answer back.
13 (Record read.)
14 Thanks.
15 BY MR. TAYLOR:
16 Q Now, were you appointed to the -- to
17 be chief of detectives by Matt Rodriguez?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Did you request that assignment or was
20 that something that just came in the normal course of
21 business?
22 A No, I did not request it.
23 Q Okay. Could you give us the closest
24 that you can remember the date that you were assigned
17
1 as chief of detectives?
2 A As I remember, I think it was
3 somewhere, like, in April of '95. I know it was in
4 1995. I think it was during the month of April or
5 May, one of those two months. An exact date I
6 couldn't tell you.
7 Q In your duties as a patrol officer and
8 as a sergeant and later as a lieutenant, did you have
9 experience in questioning witnesses and suspects?
10 A When you say questioning suspects,
11 can -- tell me exactly what you mean when you say
12 questioning suspects, you know, when -- if I'm
13 filling out a case report or arrest report, you're
14 not talking about -- are you talking about that or
15 what?
16 Q Well, no. I see what you're saying.
17 I mean substantive questioning about a crime, let's
18 say, questioning them about if they were a witness or
19 if -- what information they knew about a crime that
20 you were investigating.
21 A I have --
22 MR. CROWE: I'll just object as to whether
23 Mr. Taylor is talking about whether they are in
24 custody or not in custody.
18
1 MR. TAYLOR: Right now it's a general question
2 covering all circumstances.
3 THE WITNESS: Well, I've questioned, you know,
4 individuals, whether it was in custody or whether it
5 was out of custody, you know.
6 BY MR. TAYLOR:
7 Q Had you had an occasion to question
8 juveniles, whether they were in custody or out of
9 custody?
10 A Not to my recollection, no.
11 Q So, I take it, then you hadn't had any
12 experience in questioning little children of the ages
13 similar to the ones that were arrested originally in
14 this case, the Ryan Harris case.
15 A Who? Me personally?
16 Q You personally. Yes, sir.
17 A No, sir.
18 Q Now, in 19 -- did you say -- I'm
19 sorry. I didn't hear your answer in terms of -- did
20 you say 1997 when you came to the Detective Division
21 or did you say 1996?
22 A I said 1995.
23 Q I guess I really didn't hear you at
24 all, did I. In 1995 when you came to the Detective
19
1 Division as the chief, was it your duty to appoint
2 the personnel under your command or were they
3 assigned to you?
4 A It all depends on what personnel
5 you're talking about.
6 Q Specifically the deputy chiefs.
7 A No, sir. That came from the
8 superintendent of police.
9 Q Did you have a staff?
10 A Yes, I had a staff.
11 Q And did you have a lieutenant on your
12 staff?
13 A Yes, I did.
14 Q And who was that lieutenant?
15 A At that time it was Lieutenant James
16 Malloy.
17 Q Did he remain with you during the time
18 that you were at the Detective Division?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Did you have any kind of chief of
21 staff or administrative assistant that handled some
22 of your work?
23 A No.
24 Q Would Malloy have been the equivalent
20
1 of your chief of staff or administrative assistant?
2 A He would have been the equivalent of
3 my administrative assistant.
4 Q Did you have any sergeants or others
5 that worked on your direct staff?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And who worked with you as a sergeant?
8 A Sergeant Marjorie O'Day, Sergeant Paul
9 Carroll, and Sergeant Padgurskas, Charles Padgurskas.
10 Q Anyone else that was on your direct
11 staff other than the persons you've named for me?
12 A At one time Sergeant Jack Ridges
13 worked out of the Detective Division once we
14 initiated Cold Case Central and Homicide Squad.
15 Q What year was that?
16 A That had to be the last year that I
17 was there as chief of detectives.
18 Q That would have been '98 or --
19 A I believe in '97.
20 Q Was there a time period between the
21 time that you became superintendent in early 1998 and
22 the time that you left as deputy -- excuse me -- as
23 chief of detectives, or did you move right from chief
24 of detectives to being the superintendent?
21
1 A Well, there was a time period in the
2 sense that I was selected by the mayor and I had to
3 be approved before the city council.
4 I still worked out of the office of
5 the chief of detectives. I didn't move into the
6 superintendent's office until I was confirmed by the
7 city council.
8 Q How long a period of time are we
9 talking about?
10 A Probably talking about a couple of
11 months, I believe.
12 Q All right. So would it be fair to say
13 that you worked in the Detective -- as chief of
14 detectives right up until the end of '97 and perhaps
15 a little bit into the beginning of '98?
16 A Well, I was still the chief of
17 detectives for the full year of '97 because I wasn't
18 appointed to superintendent until 18 February 1998.
19 Q Okay. Now, was one of the things that
20 was done at the Detective Division to do reports and
21 analyses concerning crime patterns?
22 A That was one of the small units we had
23 there, yes, sir.
24 Q Okay. Was there a crime -- what was
22
1 the name of that unit?
2 A Analytical Unit.
3 Q Okay.
4 MR. CROWE: This is when he was chief of
5 detectives.
6 MS. ROSEN: Right. Right.
7 BY MR. TAYLOR:
8 Q And who was the head of the Analytical
9 Unit while you were chief?
10 A At that time, as I remember, Sergeant
11 Paul Carroll.
12 Q Now, I want to show you what I'm going
13 to have marked here as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 298.
14 (Exhibit marked and tendered to
15 witness.)
16 Do you recognize the kind of document
17 that Plaintiffs' Exhibit 298 is?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q What is it?
20 A This is an aggravated criminal sexual
21 assault. It's what we call a crime pattern.
22 Q All right. Was this issued by the
23 unit that you testified that Officer Carroll was in
24 charge of?
23
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And I notice at the bottom, is that
3 your signature or is that someone else that --
4 A No, sir, I don't write that good.
5 Q So someone else was signing it in your
6 stead?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Now, when a crime analysis pattern is
9 issued, is it normally issued with the signature of
10 the chief or someone acting in his stead?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And do you recognize who may have
13 signed your name on this one?
14 A Well, that could have been Sergeant
15 Paul Carroll, it could have been Lieutenant Malloy.
16 Q Either of them were authorized --
17 A Yes.
18 Q -- to sign your name? Okay. Around
19 the time that this particular crime pattern was
20 issued, were you aware of this particular crime
21 pattern?
22 A You know, it doesn't bring back any --
23 ring any bells or anything like that.
24 Q Would you, from time to time, as chief
24
1 of detectives review crime analysis pattern reports
2 that were issued?
3 A From time to time, yes.
4 Q And under what circumstances would you
5 review those?
6 A Well, it depends on the crime, you
7 know. If there was an inordinate amount of bank
8 robberies, an inordinate amount of criminal sexual
9 assaults, an inordinate amount of people, like, we
10 had female streetwalkers dying in a particular
11 neighborhood, that would be brought to my attention.
12 Q Okay. But you don't know whether this
13 crime pattern, this particular crime pattern, was
14 called to your attention or not while you were chief
15 of detectives?
16 A I can't say yes or no on that,
17 Counsel.
18 Q Okay. From this report it had a
19 fairly wide distribution; is that right?
20 A Yeah, it should have. Well, if you
21 look at it, the 2nd and the 7th District --
22 Q Okay.
23 A -- are the two districts, but most of
24 the -- if you look over on the left-hand side, a lot
25
1 of the specialized units got it.
2 The Special Operations Section
3 received it, the Special Functions Section, and the
4 district Tactical and also the field units.
5 Q And then Area 1, various portions of
6 Area 1 got it?
7 A Right.
8 Q Which, of course, covers both the 2nd
9 and the 7th District; is that right?
10 A Yes. And --
11 Q At --
12 MR. CROWE: I'm sorry. Have you finished your
13 answer?
14 THE WITNESS: No.
15 BY MR. TAYLOR:
16 Q I'm sorry.
17 A And then over on the right-hand side,
18 all the units from Organized Crime and really from
19 the Detective Division, especially those units that
20 encompass organized crime and prostitution, that was
21 on there.
22 Q Okay. At whose initiation would a
23 crime analysis pattern be issued?
24 A Well, the analyst who works out of
26
1 this unit would take and review all those particular
2 case reports for that respective crime that he was in
3 charge of.
4 This is from a sexual assault case, so
5 the individual who was in charge of criminal sexual
6 assault cases, or whether it be a robbery case or
7 whether it be a burglary case, those different
8 analysts, whoever it is, he would come up with the
9 analysis and then submit it to a sergeant.
10 Q Okay. And was there, while you were
11 at the Detective Division as its chief, were there
12 computerized systems for looking for crime patterns?
13 A Well, when you say, "computerized
14 systems," I need to know what you're talking about.
15 Q Well, let me ask you. Are you
16 familiar with a system called ICAM?
17 A Yeah. But ICAM, as I remember, ICAM
18 hadn't came in during this time --
19 Q Okay.
20 A -- as I remember.
21 Q All right. Do you remember when it
22 did come in?
23 A I think ICAM came in right when I
24 became superintendent, not too long after I became
27
1 superintendent, the best of my recollection.
2 You know, I can check on that for you.
3 But, you know, I think 1997, 18 February 1997, I
4 don't think ICAM was operational then.
5 Q Was there any other way to use
6 computerized data to search for crime patterns while
7 you were chief of detectives?
8 A Well, as I remember, the majority of
9 this was done manually, those detectives sitting down
10 and going through those particular case reports from
11 their respective Area of assignment and reading them
12 verbally and manually.
13 Q Okay. Would this be done by the
14 detectives at headquarters in the Crime Analysis Unit
15 or would this be out in the Areas that it would be
16 done?
17 A Well, detectives at headquarters, but
18 also you had detectives out in the field who would go
19 over the case reports also.
20 Q Okay. Were crime analysis patterns
21 done in homicides and sexual assault cases, robbery
22 cases, all those different kinds of cases?
23 A If there was a pattern.
24 Q To look for one?
28
1 A Yeah.
2 Q Could a request come from an Area to
3 have the Crime Analysis Unit look for a pattern if
4 someone out in the district or the Area wanted to see
5 if there was such a pattern?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Okay. Did that happen while you were
8 chief of detectives periodically?
9 A I'm quite sure it did.
10 Q All right. Now, when you came to be
11 the superintendent, you had various deputy
12 superintendents on your command staff; is that right?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q Were those selections made by you or
15 were they appointments made by someone else?
16 A Well, when I became superintendent, I
17 only made one appointment.
18 Q And what appointment did you make?
19 A That was Deputy Superintendent Jeannie
20 Clark.
21 Q What was her title that you appointed
22 her to?
23 A I think I appointed her to deputy
24 superintendent of Staff Services, I believe.
29
1 Q And the others you kept in place from
2 the previous administration; is that right?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q So who was the first deputy
5 superintendent?
6 A John Townsend.
7 Q Okay. Who else other than Townsend
8 and Clark were deputy superintendents when you --
9 A Deputy Superintendent Mike Malone,
10 Bureau of Investigative Services; Deputy
11 Superintendent James Whigham, Bureau of Technical
12 Services; and Deputy Superintendent of Administrative
13 Services, Harris, John Harris.
14 Q Anyone else? Does that cover all of
15 them?
16 A That should be five of them.
17 Q Okay. Did you have a practice while
18 you were superintendent to have daily briefings or
19 daily meetings with your command staff?
20 A I had tried to have what we call a
21 morning staff meeting. Every morning I would try,
22 you know, but sometimes I'm not able to.
23 Q All right. If you were out of town or
24 otherwise busy, you might not have one?
30
1 A Right.
2 Q But would you say normally you would
3 have one each day?
4 A I would try.
5 Q Did you come in around 8:30 in the
6 morning?
7 A Usually I would come in about 8:00,
8 8:15.
9 Q And would that be the first thing you
10 would do that morning if you had one, have a
11 briefing, or would you --
12 A It was usually held between 9:00 and
13 9:15.
14 Q And for how long did you schedule the
15 meetings? In other words, how long were they in
16 terms of time?
17 A The meetings go anywhere from -- it
18 all depends on what the participants have to discuss,
19 you know. But it would go anywhere from 15 minutes
20 to 30, 35, 40 minutes.
21 Q Would the deputy superintendents each
22 report on significant business in cases that they
23 were involved in to you each morning?
24 A Out of their respective bureau, yes,
31
1 sir.
2 Q And other than the deputy
3 superintendents who attended the meeting along with
4 you, these briefings along with you, who else
5 normally attended, if anyone?
6 A Well, the deputy superintendent, the
7 secretary, the press secretary; the administrator
8 from OPS, the assistant deputy superintendent of IAD,
9 the general counsel.
10 Q Did you have an administrative
11 assistant?
12 A And my administrative assistant, yes,
13 sir.
14 Q When you came in, did you appoint an
15 administrative assistant or did you assume the one
16 that was already there?
17 A I assumed the one that was already
18 there.
19 Q Who was that?
20 A That was Commander Gerald Mahnke.
21 Q Is he still your administrative
22 assistant?
23 A No, sir. He's commander of Area 5
24 Detective Division.
32
1 Q Okay. When was he replaced?
2 A Approximately two years ago.
3 Q All right. So he would have been your
4 administrative assistant during the Ryan Harris case?
5 A I believe so, yes, sir.
6 Q Okay. Who was he replaced by?
7 A Um, Commander Joseph Gandurski.
8 Q Is he still your administrative
9 assistant?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And you said legal counsel would
12 normally attend these briefings?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q Did you assume legal counsel from
15 Deputy -- excuse me -- Superintendent Rodriguez?
16 A Uh, for a couple of months.
17 Q Was that Zoufal?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Then did you replace Zoufal or was he
20 replaced with another counsel?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Was that Needham that replaced him?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q At some point Needham was appointed to
33
1 another position within your administration, was he
2 not?
3 A I appointed him to chief of staff.
4 Q Okay. Does he hold that position now?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q When did you appoint him to that
7 position?
8 A Um, I believe it was almost a year
9 ago.
10 Q Do you now have legal counsel?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Is she present today?
13 A That's her down on the end, Ms. Karen
14 Rowan.
15 Q All right. Very good. And she took
16 Needham's place; is that right?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Now, you say that -- who was your
19 chief of staff when you became superintendent?
20 A There was no chief of staff then.
21 Q Okay. Did you create that position?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q You created that position about a year
24 ago?
34
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q All right. Does the chief of staff
3 have a different role than the administrative
4 assistant did prior to you creating the chief of
5 staff?
6 A Say that again.
7 Q What does the chief of staff do?
8 A The chief of staff, what's his job
9 now?
10 Q Um-hum.
11 A His job is to handle those tasks that
12 I don't have the time to handle when it comes down to
13 interacting with certain elected officials, when it
14 comes down to attending meetings down at city hall
15 that I don't have -- you know, that my time won't
16 allow me to be two places at one time, and to help me
17 out that way.
18 Q Okay. Was that one of the tasks that
19 the administrative assistant performed before you
20 created the chief of staff?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q Okay. What did and does the
23 administrative assistant do?
24 A Administrative assistant handles all
35
1 the invitations, you know, he oversees all the
2 invitations that the superintendent receives in order
3 to appear before certain community groups, certain
4 political groups, certain faith-based organizations,
5 to help and oversee my scheduling, to ensure that
6 when I have to travel outside the city, along with
7 his staff, see that contact is made with persons
8 outside the city so that when I get there, things are
9 set up for me to proceed without any disruption, to
10 take and review those public speeches that I have to
11 present, things such as that, and really to run the
12 superintendent's office, oversee the running of the
13 superintendent's office.
14 Q Now, while you were chief of
15 detectives, did you have any dealings with Commander
16 Dan Gibson who became the commander of Area 1 around
17 the time of the Ryan Harris case?
18 A When you say, "dealings," what do you
19 mean?
20 Q Did you know Dan Gibson while you were
21 chief of detectives?
22 A Yeah, I knew Dan Gibson when I was
23 chief of detectives. Yes, sir.
24 Q Did you work -- did he work for you or
36
1 with you on any cases?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q Did you know Lieutenant Cornfield
4 while you were chief of detectives?
5 A Yes, I did.
6 Q What was Cornfield's -- how did you
7 happen to know Cornfield? In what context did you
8 know him?
9 A He was the administrative assistant to
10 Deputy Superintendent Mike Malone when I was chief of
11 detectives.
12 Q And did you know -- let me ask you
13 this. Did you know Detective Allen Nathaniel prior
14 to the Ryan Harris case?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q Did you know Detective James Cassidy
17 prior to the Ryan Harris case?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q Did you know Sergeant Stanley Zaborac
20 prior to the Ryan Harris case?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q All right. And in what context did
23 you know him?
24 A Stan Zaborac used to be a Tac sergeant
37
1 for the commander of the 2nd District.
2 Q While you were there?
3 A No, while -- I'm going back a couple
4 years now, but I knew that he was a Tac sergeant down
5 there, you know.
6 Q Did you have any dealings with him?
7 Did you work with him on any cases?
8 A I never worked with him on any cases
9 or anything like that, but, you know, I knew him. I
10 knew that he was a good Tac sergeant, ran a good
11 team, a good police officer.
12 Q So you thought he was a good officer
13 from what you had heard about him?
14 A Well, that's what I thought and that's
15 what I felt and I still think that today.
16 Q Okay. Did you know Sergeant Daniel
17 Brannigan prior --
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q -- to the Ryan Harris case? How did
20 you happen to know him?
21 A I used to work with Dan Brannigan,
22 Sergeant Brannigan, when I was a patrolman in Gang
23 Crimes South.
24 Q He was a patrolman and you were the
38
1 watch commander there?
2 A No, this goes back even further than
3 that. This is gang investigations when we first got
4 started out on 91st Street.
5 Q What year was that?
6 A About 1974.
7 Q So this is before you made sergeant?
8 A Yeah, this was before I made sergeant.
9 Q Did you work with him as a partner?
10 A No, no. We worked on the same shift,
11 third watch, the same office.
12 Q Did you do any investigations with
13 him?
14 A No.
15 Q Did you work on cases with him?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q But you knew him because he was on the
18 same watch with you?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q All right. And did you have any
21 opinion of him as a police officer?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And what was that?
24 A A very good police officer, very
39
1 motivated.
2 Q Okay. Did you know with regard to
3 either Brannigan or Zaborac their disciplinary
4 backgrounds, what, if any, disciplinary allegations
5 they had had against them?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Have you ever investigated that?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q Okay.
10 A Can we back up here?
11 MR. CROWE: Sure.
12 THE WITNESS: Now, when you asked me if I had
13 worked with Dan Brannigan when I was a patrolman and
14 I said no cases or anything like that, but he did
15 work for me when I became a lieutenant.
16 BY MR. TAYLOR:
17 Q That was the next thing I was going to
18 ask you.
19 A Okay. I just didn't want that to slip
20 through the cracks, you know.
21 Q When you became a lieutenant and went
22 back to Gang Crimes, he was still there, right?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q At that time was he a sergeant or was
40
1 he still a --
2 A He was a sergeant. As I remember, he
3 was a sergeant.
4 Q So he worked for you at that time?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Again, did you supervise his work?
7 A To a certain extent. He was -- during
8 that time I was there, he was sort of, like, detailed
9 to -- he was detailed to Alcohol, Tobacco, and
10 Firearms, too. So the majority of the time, he spent
11 the majority of his time over at Alcohol, Tobacco,
12 and Firearms.
13 Q So you didn't supervise him on a
14 day-to-day basis?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q But you did know -- he was working out
17 of your office but detailed somewhere else the
18 majority of the time?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And did you supervise any
21 investigations that he did?
22 A No.
23 Q Did you continue to have the same
24 opinion of him as a police officer while you were a
41
1 lieutenant at Gang Crimes?
2 A I still have the same opinion of him.
3 He's a dynamite police officer.
4 Q A what?
5 A He's a dynamite police officer.
6 Q Oh, okay. Were you aware that he was
7 involved in the arrest of Andrew Wilson in the Andrew
8 Wilson case?
9 A As I remember vaguely, you know, there
10 was a lot of folks involved in the arrest of the --
11 the Wilson Brothers, you're talking about?
12 Q Right, right.
13 A There was a number of police officers.
14 I don't know if -- what percentage or what part he
15 played in it, but I know there was a number of police
16 officers involved in that.
17 Q Did you know that he was involved?
18 A Not -- you know, I couldn't say
19 verbatim that I knew that he particularly was
20 involved. I know there was a lot of folks that
21 worked on that case.
22 Q Okay. Now, did you know any of the
23 other detectives that were involved in the -- well,
24 let me ask you specifically rather than ask you
42
1 generally. Did you know Devon Anderson?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q And Sam Brown --
4 A No, sir.
5 Q -- Samuel Brown? Paul Jackson?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Now, I want to ask you about July and
8 August of 1998. In order to perhaps help in terms of
9 days you were working and when you were working, we
10 have the A&A sheets.
11 I'm going to mark that as an exhibit
12 and let you have that in front of you so that if you
13 need to -- let's mark this as 299. This is in case
14 you need to look at it to see if you were working or
15 when you were working on a particular day.
16 (Exhibit marked and tendered to
17 witness.)
18 Do you recognize these to be generally
19 what's called the A&A sheets that record the daily
20 attendance of all officers from -- apparently from
21 the superintendent on down --
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q -- all the way to beat patrolmen; is
24 that right?
43
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q These start on the 28th of July and
3 they go up until the 15th of August and then there
4 are several in early September; the 3rd, 4th, and
5 5th. So as we go through your testimony, we can
6 refer to this as necessary to see when and what hours
7 you were working.
8 Looking at the first day, which is the
9 28th, it indicates that you were on duty; is that
10 right?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And that the -- it appears to be that
13 the normal hours that you worked that day were from
14 8:30 to 4:30; is that right?
15 A You know, I just got to -- I'm not
16 being facetious or anything like that, and I see what
17 the sheets say. But I don't think since -- I know
18 for a fact since I've had this job I have not left
19 this job at 4:30 in the afternoon.
20 Q Well, I notice from the sheets that if
21 you look at the next day, it says, "3 HR AO, 28 July
22 98, 1630 to 1930." Would normally they enter your
23 overtime the next day on the next sheet? Is that the
24 way that --
44
1 A Well, really it's not overtime. They
2 just put the time that we work because the exempt
3 ranks, you know, we don't receive overtime.
4 Q Okay. Well, looking at this sheet in
5 the column that says, "Absence, Explanation of Comp
6 Time Worked," it has, "3 HR AO, 27 July 98, 1630 to
7 1930." Do you see that?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Now, would that indicate that on the
10 27th of July you worked -- well, we won't call it
11 over -- for lack of a better word -- extra hours?
12 A Right. I stayed here until about
13 7:30.
14 Q You stayed until 1930 hours, which is,
15 what, 7:30 in the evening?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Okay. Was that your general practice
18 to at least work three or four hours beyond the bell
19 on the days you were in?
20 A Well, not only during the week, but on
21 the weekend, too.
22 Q Okay. What is "AO"? Do you know what
23 that stands for? "HR," I would assume, is hours. Do
24 you know what "AO" stands for?
45
1 A I have no idea.
2 Q Okay. So this would indicate that on
3 the 27th of July, that being the day that Ryan Harris
4 was reported missing, you were working and you worked
5 your normal or fairly normal 11, 12-hour day; is that
6 right?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Was it called to your attention while
9 she was missing but before her body was found that,
10 in fact, Ryan Harris -- that there was a girl missing
11 in Englewood that turned out to be Ryan Harris?
12 A You know, if I was to be appraised of
13 that, it would probably have been at the morning
14 meeting.
15 Q So it wouldn't have been until the
16 morning of the 28th?
17 A Yeah.
18 Q And if you were appraised of that,
19 would that have come most likely through Deputy
20 Superintendent Malone who is in charge of the
21 Detective Division, among other parts of the
22 department?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q Do you have a recollection of Deputy
46
1 Superintendent Malone informing you of the missing
2 person or child in Englewood that turned out to be
3 Ryan Harris on the 28th, informing you on the 28th?
4 A Normally when we had the normal
5 meeting, we would start with the first deputy who
6 used to sit in the seat to the right of me. He would
7 give his report.
8 Then the deputy superintendent of the
9 Bureau of Investigative Services would give his
10 report, and he would go down and start with the
11 Detective Division first, telling, you know, what
12 outstanding cases that they had.
13 If there was a young child missing,
14 you know, he would bring that up; female, black, age
15 11, 12 years old, missing from such-and-such a
16 location, and then he would go on to the next case.
17 Q Now, in the summer of '98 were you
18 aware of there being a series of unsolved cases
19 having to do with children in the Englewood area?
20 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
21 question.
22 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of children, you
23 know. I'm aware of --
24 MR. CROWE: Do you mean sexual abuse of
47
1 children, missing children?
2 BY MR. TAYLOR:
3 Q Okay. Well, were you aware of any
4 particular pattern of crimes against children, or
5 young girls, I should say, in July of 1998 when the
6 Ryan Harris case arose?
7 A Not to my recollection, you know. I
8 can't say that I recall it, not to my recollection.
9 Q Do you remember there being any
10 particular community protest or community concern
11 that was articulated to you from Englewood about
12 unsolved crimes in that community?
13 MR. CROWE: Before the Ryan Harris case?
14 MR. TAYLOR: Yes, during -- in July of '98.
15 THE WITNESS: Well, I spent a great deal of
16 time at community meetings over there in Englewood
17 talking about the deaths of some of the ladies who
18 plied their trades on the street, and going over and
19 trying to galvanize that community, tell them what we
20 were trying to do and we needed their help.
21 Q So those were the prostitute murders
22 that were unsolved at that time?
23 A Well, we had a -- we had a number of
24 them, you know.
48
1 Q And so you were at community meetings
2 along with people from Area 1 to discuss with the
3 community those crimes and other crimes that were --
4 that the community chose to raise to you; is that
5 right?
6 A As I remember, you know, I spent a
7 significant amount of time over in Englewood going to
8 community meetings and talking about the problems
9 that we had in Englewood.
10 Q Was one of the problems that was
11 raised with you the fact that there were a series of
12 unsolved sexual assaults against young girls, girls
13 of, say, the ages of ten to 15, in that area?
14 A As I remember, Mr. Taylor, this was
15 having to do with the murders of the prostitutes.
16 Q Okay. So you don't recall the issues
17 beyond the prostitute issue?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q But you were attending a series of
20 meetings in the summer of '98 in Englewood at which
21 concerns about sexual assaults and homicides in that
22 community were being discussed. Is that fair to say?
23 A When it comes down to homicides of the
24 streetwalkers.
49
1 Q Right. Was there a sexual component
2 to those crimes? In other words, were the
3 streetwalkers being --
4 A All of them had a sexual component,
5 you know, when it comes down to the homicides of
6 streetwalkers in Englewood.
7 Q Right. But, I mean, there was a
8 sexual assault aspect to those cases as well; is that
9 right?
10 A Well, they had engaged in sexual
11 activity, yes, sir.
12 Q Okay. And was your -- did you
13 articulate a concern to the Englewood community about
14 these crimes when you went to these meetings?
15 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
16 question.
17 THE WITNESS: Can you be more specific?
18 BY MR. TAYLOR:
19 Q What I'm asking you is did you
20 reassure the community that the police department was
21 doing everything it could to try to solve the crimes
22 that were unsolved in the community?
23 A Well, not only did we do that, but we
24 asked for the input, you know, telling folks that
50
1 this was just not a Chicago Police Department
2 problem. This was an entire community problem, that
3 they had to work with us, you know, if there's
4 someone out there who either saw or knew what's going
5 on.
6 So they needed to work not only with
7 the Chicago Police Department, but with their
8 respective district commander and Area detective
9 commander.
10 Q Okay. Did you receive cooperation
11 from the community?
12 A Uh, I think we did to a certain
13 extent.
14 Q Okay. Are there any records of the
15 meetings that you had with the Englewood community?
16 A Well, I think if it's not on my
17 schedule, the folks that I met with over in
18 Englewood, you know, certain groups over there who I
19 met with, they should have it.
20 MR. CROWE: You're talking about Chicago
21 Police Department records?
22 MR. TAYLOR: Right.
23 THE WITNESS: Okay. I would have to get the
24 schedule.
51
1 BY MR. TAYLOR:
2 Q Was there some kind of official
3 schedule that was kept of your appointments that
4 would reflect when you met with the Englewood
5 community in the summer of '98?
6 A I would have to see if we could ferret
7 that out because you have to realize that first year
8 being in this job I did not have an official
9 scheduler.
10 That didn't happen until almost until
11 1999, when we really started documenting things, you
12 know, the different meetings that we were supposed to
13 attend and things such as that.
14 Q Now, do you have a specific
15 recollection of the Ryan Harris -- of it being called
16 to your attention that Ryan Harris was missing?
17 A It was brought to my attention by
18 Deputy Malone.
19 Q That would have been on the morning of
20 the 28th?
21 A It would probably have been the day
22 after. If it wasn't on a Saturday or Sunday, if it
23 was during a weekday and I attended the morning
24 meeting, you know, Deputy Malone would have brought
52
1 it to my attention.
2 Q Okay. And what did he tell you?
3 A Well, I can't specifically say what he
4 told me. I can say truthfully to tell you that he
5 would state that we have -- if she was a 12,
6 13-year-old, female black, from such-and-such a
7 location, missing, and saying that if we had a plan
8 into effect and what was being done to try and locate
9 this young girl.
10 Q Did you subsequently -- were you
11 subsequently informed of the fact that her body had
12 been found?
13 A Um, Mike Malone would have informed
14 me.
15 Q Okay. Do you have a memory of that?
16 A Vaguely.
17 Q Okay. And what did he tell you with
18 regard to the discovery of her body?
19 A Well, you know, this is not verbatim.
20 This is just going on being, like, an approximation.
21 He would probably have informed me that the missing
22 female black that he had reported on prior to that
23 time had been found and that she was -- she had been
24 murdered or that she was dead, you know.
53
1 Q Did he at that time tell you any of
2 the details concerning the body or how it was found,
3 in what condition it was in?
4 A No, no. That's one of the things -- I
5 never got off into specifics. I never get off into
6 specifics. That's not my job.
7 Q Did he tell you that it appeared that
8 the girl had been sexually assaulted?
9 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the question
10 given the witness's last answer.
11 THE WITNESS: He didn't tell me specifics,
12 Mr. Taylor.
13 BY MR. TAYLOR:
14 Q Not even that specific?
15 A No.
16 Q Okay. Did you give him -- let me ask
17 you this. Were there any notes kept at these daily
18 briefings?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q And there was no recording of it by
21 tape or a reporter or anything like that?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q Okay. After you learned that the Ryan
24 Harris girl had been found murdered, did you give any
54
1 instructions to Malone or anyone else in your chain
2 of command concerning the case?
3 A Well, you know, I don't think I would
4 have to give instructions. Mike Malone was a -- one
5 hell of a detective, you know, in the Detective
6 Division when he was in his younger days.
7 And now here he is, the deputy
8 superintendent of the Bureau of Investigative
9 Services. Mike knew what had to be done.
10 Q So in that sense you relied on Malone
11 to make sure that whatever was necessary to do with
12 regard to the investigation would be done; is that
13 right?
14 A Well, not only Mike Malone, but the
15 entire Detective Division.
16 Q Okay. Did you receive daily updates
17 with regard to the investigation of the Ryan Harris
18 case after the body was found?
19 A Now, when you say, "daily updates" --
20 Q Let me put it this way. Was it a
21 topic of the briefing each day, your morning briefing
22 I'm talking about now, after the body was found?
23 A Mike Malone would come in and he would
24 tell us that, you know, they were still moving ahead
55
1 and trying to locate, identify who the perpetrator
2 was or perpetrators were of this incident.
3 MR. CROWE: Excuse me. I don't think he
4 understands your question. Your question is every
5 day was this discussed? I don't think he understands
6 that.
7 MR. TAYLOR: But he's telling us generally
8 what Malone would say.
9 MR. CROWE: Yeah, he's talking generally, and
10 I think you're asking him every day was this
11 discussed.
12 THE WITNESS: No, no, not every day, you know,
13 because the incident had happened and then it was in
14 the detectives' hands.
15 BY MR. TAYLOR:
16 Q Did Malone give you periodic updates
17 during the first week or two of the investigation?
18 A Not periodic updates. When he had
19 something to give me, he would give it to me, you
20 know. I think he would come in and inform me or tell
21 me, you know, where they were at. But it wasn't
22 every day.
23 Q But it was -- at some point during the
24 first couple of weeks you received updates from
56
1 Malone concerning the case; isn't that right?
2 A Uh, yes.
3 Q Did he update you with regard to what
4 the medical examiner had found in the autopsy of Ryan
5 Harris?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Did you receive any information
8 concerning the nature of the injuries that Ryan
9 Harris had suffered from Malone or anyone else?
10 A Not from Malone or from any of the
11 detectives. You know, all you have to do is read the
12 newspaper.
13 Q Had you read reports in the newspaper
14 about some details with regard to the murder of Ryan
15 Harris?
16 A Well, you read the newspaper and then
17 you have to be very cautious on what you read in the
18 newspaper, you know.
19 Q Sure. But you're saying that there
20 were some -- there were some details with regard to
21 the injuries to Ryan Harris that you saw in the
22 newspaper?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And did you learn from the newspapers
57
1 that she had suffered head injuries, blunt trauma
2 head injuries?
3 A The only thing I remember reading was
4 blunt trauma.
5 Q Okay. Did you learn anything either
6 from the briefings or the newspapers concerning
7 whether she had skull fractures?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q Did you learn anything from either the
10 newspapers or the briefings in the first week or two
11 of the investigation with regard to whether she had
12 any injury to her brain, such as bruising or bleeding
13 or that kind of thing?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q All right. Did you learn about any
16 other injuries to her other than the fact that she
17 had blunt trauma?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q Okay. Did you learn anything with
20 regard to whether she had been sexually assaulted,
21 whether there was any evidence of sexual assault,
22 either from the newspaper or from your briefings?
23 A No, sir.
24 Q Okay. Did you learn anything either
58
1 from the newspapers or from your briefings about
2 whether she had been suffocated by having a piece of
3 clothing shoved into her mouth?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q Did you learn anything about
6 whether -- what the nature of the weapon was that the
7 investigation had identified as a potential murder
8 weapon?
9 A The only thing that I remember is
10 something about a rock.
11 Q Okay. Now, was it a rock or a brick?
12 A No, it was a rock.
13 Q Now, was it prior to or subsequent to
14 the arrest of the little boys in this case that you
15 learned that there was a rock that was a potential
16 murder weapon, according to the police?
17 A This was after.
18 Q The boys were arrested?
19 A Were arrested.
20 Q Okay.
21 MR. CROWE: I think all the questions
22 Mr. Taylor is asking dealt with before the boys were
23 arrested.
24 BY MR. TAYLOR:
59
1 Q Yes, that's right. That's why I
2 clarified it with you, because I thought you might be
3 talking about afterward.
4 So before the little boys were
5 arrested you had no information as to what, if any,
6 murder weapon the investigation had identified as a
7 possible --
8 A No, I'm sorry.
9 Q Okay. Had you learned anything prior
10 to the arrest of the little boys with regard to the
11 location of where her body was found?
12 A The only thing that I can say is
13 remembering what Malone said, that the body was
14 located and it was in Englewood. That's it. The
15 location, the specific location, I had no knowledge
16 of that.
17 Q So in terms of what address or even
18 how the body was found in terms of on her back or on
19 her side or on her front, you didn't know any of
20 that?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q Was there -- you say you saw it in the
23 newspapers. Did you also see it on TV?
24 A Well, I have to truthfully tell you,
60
1 Mr. Taylor, during that time I was getting beat up
2 and I didn't watch very much TV, especially the news.
3 Q Now, you're saying, "beat up." You
4 mean by the media?
5 A By the media and by some of the
6 activists in this city.
7 Q Now, are you talking about, again,
8 after the little boys were arrested or before?
9 A After the little boys was arrested and
10 really --
11 MR. CROWE: His question is before --
12 THE WITNESS: Before --
13 MR. CROWE: -- the boys were arrested.
14 THE WITNESS: Before I was taking my lumps and
15 hits from the newspaper -- from the TV. So I don't
16 do a lot of watching of TV.
17 BY MR. TAYLOR:
18 Q Were some of the lumps you were taking
19 because the Ryan Harris case was not being solved or
20 hadn't been solved over the next couple of weeks?
21 A Well, that and a number of other
22 things.
23 Q What were the other things other than
24 the Ryan Harris case?
61
1 A People just -- it seemed as if some of
2 my residents didn't think that I was running the
3 police department like it should have been ran.
4 Q Are there any specific examples you
5 can give us about how you were getting beat up other
6 than the Ryan Harris case?
7 A The only thing is every time that I
8 watched TV, it was something negative about Terry
9 Hillard and the Chicago Police Department, you know.
10 Q I see.
11 A And being a new superintendent at that
12 time, you know, it wore on me for a while.
13 Q Okay. So you didn't watch the TV or
14 the newspapers too closely in those weeks, the week
15 or two between the time that Ryan Harris was found
16 and the time that the little boys were arrested,
17 because there was a lot of negative publicity against
18 you and the police department because of that case
19 and other things as well. Is that fair to say?
20 A Um-hum. That's true.
21 Q Okay. Did you have -- however, did
22 someone in News Affairs or your administrative
23 assistant or someone keep you generally informed of
24 what was going on in the media so that you knew what
62
1 kind of criticism was coming down so you could
2 respond to it, from time to time?
3 A Well, we got what we call press
4 releases, press briefings, that we clip out of the
5 newspaper, you know, to sort of give us a short
6 synopsis of what's happening; the Tribune, Sun-Times,
7 Defender, such as that.
8 Q Would you look at those clippings?
9 A From time to time, you know.
10 Q So -- by the way, would someone from
11 News Affairs be at your daily briefings?
12 A Yes, sir. I said that.
13 Q Who was that at the time?
14 A At that time it was Pat Camden.
15 Q Was he director of News Affairs?
16 A He was the acting director.
17 Q Is he director now?
18 A He's the deputy director.
19 Q Okay. Who is the director now?
20 A Dave Baylis.
21 Q At that time he was the acting
22 director --
23 A Right.
24 Q -- so he was number one in command of
63
1 News Affairs; is that right?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q That's part of your staff, right?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q When News Affairs issued information,
6 it would be with your either expressed or tacit
7 approval; is that right?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q All right.
10 A Let's back up here. News Affairs
11 operates and they don't have to -- when they get
12 ready to go and have a press release or something
13 like that, they don't have to get the approval of the
14 superintendent.
15 That's the reason I hired them. They
16 are supposed to be the pros, you know. They're
17 supposed to do what's in the best interest of this
18 police department.
19 Q But they do speak for you and your
20 department, right?
21 A They speak for the department, yes,
22 sir.
23 Q In that sense you delegated the
24 authority or some of the authority to speak for the
64
1 department --
2 A Right.
3 Q -- to News Affairs, right?
4 A Right.
5 Q And if you are in disagreement with
6 something that they say, do you then call it to their
7 attention?
8 A Oh, yes. Definitely.
9 Q Have you done that, from time to time,
10 since you've been the superintendent?
11 A Well, a couple of times, but it hasn't
12 been that many times, you know. It's just like any
13 organization, you know.
14 Q So if there was something you didn't
15 agree with, you would call Camden or whoever in and
16 ask him why he did that and perhaps even put out a
17 release that might counteract what he said?
18 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the question
19 in that there's no foundation for it.
20 THE WITNESS: Well, if they put out something
21 that I didn't agree with, I would bring them in and,
22 you know, give me the reason why this was done, you
23 know.
24 But what you have to realize is I
65
1 might disagree with it, but he might have a reason
2 why it needed to go out, you know. They're the pros
3 at this, not Terry Hillard.
4 BY MR. TAYLOR:
5 Q Is he a civilian or does he have a
6 rank within the department?
7 A He used to be a sworn. He's a
8 civilian now.
9 Q But he used to be a Chicago police
10 officer?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What rank did he attain?
13 A He was a patrolman, but he was the
14 deputy press secretary for almost 11 years.
15 Q Okay. As a patrolman?
16 A As a patrolman. And he was never paid
17 for it.
18 Q You mean he volunteered?
19 MR. CROWE: There was no question pending.
20 THE WITNESS: Yeah, okay.
21 BY MR. TAYLOR:
22 Q So he's loyal to the department, is
23 what you're saying.
24 A No, he's loyal to this city.
66
1 Q Okay. And to the department?
2 A And the citizens of this city.
3 Q Okay. Now, did you at some point --
4 strike that.
5 Are you aware, even though you weren't
6 watching the press that closely during the 12 or 13
7 days between the time that Ryan Harris' body was
8 found and the time that the little boys were charged
9 in this case, were you aware that it was receiving a
10 lot of attention both in the city in general and
11 specifically in Englewood?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q And would it be fair to say that it
14 was a significant case here in the city?
15 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
16 question.
17 THE WITNESS: When you say, "significant,"
18 what --
19 BY MR. TAYLOR:
20 Q An important case.
21 A Well, Mr. Taylor, I think all of them
22 are important really. All of them are important.
23 But, you know, this case happened to come out of
24 Englewood, and Englewood being the neighborhood that
67
1 it is, it seems like it gets -- a lot of time it
2 doesn't get its just due. This is an important case.
3 It's like a lot of the cases that we have in
4 Englewood.
5 Q Did it have an added importance
6 because it was a little girl that was victimized in
7 the case?
8 A Well, it's -- when there's a child,
9 it's always got that level, you know, the feeling
10 that you have to solve it.
11 Q Um-hum. During that week or two that
12 there were periodic briefings that included this case
13 in the press that you weren't following that closely
14 but did get some information from, was there any
15 discussion with -- between you and any persons on
16 your staff, whether it be Malone or anyone else,
17 about looking to see whether the Harris case fit into
18 a pattern in Englewood concerning assaults of little
19 girls or young girls?
20 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
21 question. That assumes that there was a pattern.
22 THE WITNESS: Kindly rephrase that for me,
23 would you?
24 BY MR. TAYLOR:
68
1 Q Okay. What I'm asking you is did you
2 have any discussions with Malone or with anyone else
3 during the first couple of weeks before the little
4 boys were arrested concerning whether there might be
5 a pattern that could be located with regard to the
6 Harris case and other cases in Englewood in which
7 young girls had been attacked?
8 A I think --
9 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
10 question.
11 You may answer.
12 THE WITNESS: I had not been micromanaging.
13 You know, that's not my style.
14 BY MR. TAYLOR:
15 Q So you left that up to your
16 subordinates?
17 A I left that up to Deputy Malone, the
18 chief of detectives, the commander of the Detective
19 Division, the lieutenant of Violent Crimes, and the
20 sergeant of that Detective Division out in Area 1.
21 Q Did it occur to you during that
22 couple-week period before the little boys were
23 arrested, given the facts that you had and the
24 experience you did as the chief of detectives, that
69
1 this would be a case to look at with regard to a
2 potential pattern in the Englewood community?
3 A When you say with the experience that
4 I had as the chief of -- I was chief of detectives,
5 but that don't mean that I was qualified to go out
6 and investigate, you know, homicides and rapes
7 because I had never been a detective. You're going
8 to have to be a little more specific.
9 Q Okay.
10 A I appreciate that.
11 Q Well, let me restate the question.
12 Given your knowledge of the workings of the Detective
13 Division that you gleaned from being the chief of
14 it --
15 A Um-hum.
16 Q -- did it occur to you that it would
17 be an appropriate investigative technique to look at
18 the Harris case in light of whether it fit into a
19 preexisting pattern of attacks on young girls in the
20 Englewood community?
21 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the multiple
22 questions.
23 BY MR. TAYLOR:
24 Q You can answer.
70
1 MR. CROWE: If you understand the question.
2 If you don't, you don't.
3 THE WITNESS: Can we do one at a time?
4 MR. TAYLOR: Okay. Well, why don't you read
5 the question back and we'll see where it is.
6 (Record read.)
7 MR. CROWE: I assume that means if he knows,
8 given what his last answer was before that.
9 MR. TAYLOR: Yeah, yeah.
10 MR. CROWE: Okay.
11 THE WITNESS: But I don't think there's
12 anything out there that say that they didn't look at
13 all the options and look and see about the patterns.
14 BY MR. TAYLOR:
15 Q I'm sorry if I'm not clear with my
16 question. I'm not asking whether they may or may not
17 have done that. I'm asking whether it occurred to
18 you that that would be something that should be done.
19 A No.
20 Q Okay.
21 A And I say no for a reason. It is
22 because I wanted -- you know, that was Malone's job,
23 the chief of detectives' job, the commander's job,
24 and the lieutenant and the sergeant's job, you know,
71
1 to decide what strategies, what programs, and what
2 initiatives to go forward with to investigate this
3 case.
4 Q But would you not, in briefings and
5 other conversations with subordinates, if you felt
6 there was an appropriate suggestion or directive to
7 make with regard to a case, you would make it,
8 wouldn't you?
9 A No. And you know the reason why?
10 I've learned over these last -- since I was chief of
11 detectives, that when people of the stature of the
12 superintendent speak, people want to take it as
13 gospel, you know, and there's nothing by being the
14 superintendent of police to say that I know what I'm
15 talking about when it comes down to investigating
16 cases.
17 We need to let those detectives and
18 those folks in the Detective Division who have been
19 tasked with this mission carry out their job. We got
20 one of the best Detective Divisions this country, bar
21 none, and I think that what they do and how they do
22 their job is very credible, and I just don't think
23 that we need to micromanage from this chair right
24 here trying to tell these folks how, when, what, and
72
1 how to do their jobs.
2 Q But it would be fair to say, would it
3 not, that as the superintendent the buck stops with
4 you?
5 A The buck always stops --
6 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
7 question.
8 BY MR. TAYLOR:
9 Q You started to answer.
10 A The buck always stops here.
11 Q Right. So it wouldn't be
12 micromanaging, would it, to intervene if you thought
13 that there was something wrong that was being done by
14 subordinates in the name of the Chicago Police
15 Department?
16 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
17 question. I don't see whether the buck stops here
18 has anything to do with micromanaging.
19 You may answer if you understand the
20 question.
21 THE WITNESS: When you say something is being
22 done wrong, you know --
23 BY MR. TAYLOR:
24 Q Um-hum.
73
1 A -- no one has proven or shown us
2 anything, that anything has been done wrong.
3 Q No, I'm not talking --
4 A That's what you said, Mr. Taylor.
5 Q I'm not -- don't -- I'm not talking
6 about anything specific now. I'm asking you if, in
7 fact, it were called to your attention that something
8 needed to be fixed within the department, you
9 wouldn't stand back, but rather you would act,
10 wouldn't you?
11 A I would --
12 MR. CROWE: I would object to the form of that
13 question.
14 THE WITNESS: I would bring that respective
15 commander -- not commander -- but deputy
16 superintendent in and ask him, you know, can you tell
17 me about this, like I do my press officer. Tell me
18 about this situation.
19 BY MR. TAYLOR:
20 Q Okay. If, in fact, they told you
21 things that appeared to you to be something that
22 needed to be corrected, you would correct it, would
23 you not, as the chief officer of the police
24 department?
74
1 A Well, I think since these three years
2 and two months that I've been here, I don't have to
3 tell my folks what to correct. They are coming to me
4 and telling me how they corrected it, and they are a
5 lot more proactive than I am, you know.
6 Q So you haven't had to act in any
7 particular circumstance to correct any problems
8 within the department?
9 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
10 question.
11 MS. ROSEN: Object to the form.
12 THE WITNESS: You know, I can truthfully say
13 that we have a very dynamite staff here, people who
14 are very proactive and do their job the way it needs
15 to be done.
16 To say that I micromanage, I will
17 never, ever micromanage. That's the reason we have
18 the levels; the deputy superintendent, the chief of
19 detectives, the commanders, the Violent Crimes
20 lieutenant, and those sergeants in the Detective
21 Division.
22 You're talking about three, four, five
23 levels. I'm quite sure that it -- before it reaches
24 me it's going to get solved.
75
1 BY MR. TAYLOR:
2 Q Okay. Now, during those two weeks
3 from the time that Ryan Harris' body was found on
4 July 28th until the 9th of August, which was the date
5 that these little boys were arrested here, did you
6 attend any community meetings in Englewood in which
7 the Ryan Harris case was a topic of discussion?
8 A I think there's a possibility that I
9 did.
10 Q Okay. Do you remember who attended
11 the meeting?
12 MR. CROWE: Who from the community or who from
13 the police department?
14 MR. TAYLOR: Well, whoever he remembers.
15 THE WITNESS: I think there's a possibility
16 of -- I would have to see if Commander Ford --
17 BY MR. TAYLOR:
18 Q That's the 7th District commander?
19 A I don't know who the commander was,
20 the commander from the 7th District was, at that
21 time.
22 Q I believe it was Ford.
23 A Yeah. I would have to see if he
24 attended with me.
76
1 Q Okay. Would it have been at the 2nd
2 District or would it have been out in the community?
3 A Well, the 2nd District is not in the
4 7th District. The 2nd District is at 51st and
5 Wentworth. The 7th District is at 61st and Racine.
6 Q I'm sorry. I meant the 7th District.
7 A It's a possibility it could have been
8 out in the neighborhood or it could have been at one
9 of the churches.
10 Q Do you have a memory of where it was?
11 A No.
12 Q Did people articulate at this meeting
13 concerns about the fact that the Ryan Harris case had
14 not been solved?
15 A Yeah. Yes, they did.
16 Q Okay. And did you assure them as
17 superintendent that everything was being done that
18 could be done with regard to the investigation?
19 A I told them that as the Chicago Police
20 Department that we were moving as fast and as
21 thoroughly as we could in trying to solve this case.
22 Q Now, in the -- do you remember who
23 from the community was present?
24 A Not right offhand, no.
77
1 Q Would it be fair to say that it had
2 become a heater case in the community?
3 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
4 question.
5 THE WITNESS: Well, that term that you used,
6 that's a media term, a heater case, you know. I
7 guess I truthfully have to say in some sense, yes.
8 BY MR. TAYLOR:
9 Q Okay. During those first two weeks
10 before the little boys were charged, was it called to
11 your attention by Malone or anyone else that there
12 were certain suspects that were being looked at with
13 regard to the case?
14 MR. CROWE: This was before the arrest?
15 MR. TAYLOR: Right.
16 THE WITNESS: I don't remember that.
17 BY MR. TAYLOR:
18 Q Do you remember whether you were
19 informed that there were certain adult suspects that
20 were being considered in the case? Again, I'm
21 talking about in the first two weeks.
22 A I don't remember him coming up with
23 any specifics, specific adults. No.
24 Q Now, did you have 24 -- did persons,
78
1 such as Malone, have 24-hour access to you in the
2 sense that they could reach you at any time of the
3 day or night if there was an emergency or some
4 significant information they needed to get to you?
5 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the question
6 and the prefatory remark "such as."
7 THE WITNESS: Almost half the Chicago Police
8 Department got 24-hour access to me.
9 BY MR. TAYLOR:
10 Q That's through your home number and
11 your pager?
12 A Yes, sir, and through Operations
13 command.
14 Q So you would say you're a very
15 accessible superintendent?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Would you get calls from Malone and
18 others in the chain of command, from time to time, to
19 discuss matters that they felt were significant?
20 A Usually if it came out of -- whatever
21 bureau it came out of, that deputy superintendent
22 would reach out for me and call me if he wanted to
23 contact me.
24 Q Now, this A&A sheet indicates that on
79
1 the 8th of August, which was a Saturday, that you
2 were off, but that if you look at the 9th, it appears
3 that you nonetheless worked from 11:00 to 4:00; is
4 that right, if you look at the two sheets together?
5 A If you go back to the 8th of August,
6 you'll look at 1630 to 1930 hours.
7 Q Right. Actually, that's in reference
8 to the 7th of August, isn't it?
9 A Okay.
10 Q Okay. So the next date would be --
11 A The 9th of August.
12 Q -- the 9th. Right. But it says, "4
13 HR, 11 to 15." So is that -- do you know whether you
14 worked on the 9th from 11:00 to 4:00?
15 MS. ROSEN: Three.
16 THE WITNESS: 11:00 to 3:00. That's 1500
17 hours.
18 BY MR. TAYLOR:
19 Q Oh, I'm sorry.
20 A If it's on here, I was.
21 Q Okay. Let's look at the next day
22 which says, "4 HR, 9 August 98, 1000 hours to 1400
23 hours." Do you see that?
24 A Um-hum.
80
1 Q So that would -- I guess I'm making
2 the assumption that the entry on the 9th would be in
3 reference to what you did on the 8th, which would be
4 working 11:00 to 3:00, and then on the 10th is a
5 reference to what you did on the 9th, which would be
6 from 10:00 to 2:00. Do you think that's a fair
7 interpretation of those sheets?
8 A I guess that's a fair interpretation.
9 I'm not a timekeeper.
10 Q Right. But would you normally work
11 three, four hours in the middle of the day on
12 Saturday and Sunday, your off-day?
13 A If I didn't have a drug march or a
14 gang march or some kind of community march or rally,
15 then I would come down to the office and work.
16 Q Okay. Now, on the 8th and 9th of
17 August were you working in your office or do you know
18 if you were out in the community?
19 A Well, I could have been in the office
20 or I could have been outside, you know. It all
21 depends.
22 Q Now, on the 9th of August did you
23 receive any communication from Deputy Superintendent
24 Malone concerning the Ryan Harris case?
81
1 A The 9th of August? What day is that?
2 Q That's a Sunday.
3 A That's a Sunday? To my recollection,
4 if I did receive some communication from Mike Malone,
5 it might have been later on in the night.
6 Q It would have been on the night of the
7 9th, Sunday night?
8 A Yeah, if he would have called me.
9 Q Would it have been at your home or --
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q Okay. And what do you remember about
12 that call?
13 A Well, like I said, if he was going to
14 call me, he would call me at night. As far as the
15 conversation, you know, you got to realize that I
16 talk to 40, 50, sometimes a hundred people a day. I
17 don't remember all these conversations, especially
18 going back almost what, two, three years.
19 Q Well, do you remember Malone calling
20 you at home and telling you that two little boys had
21 been arrested for the murder of Ryan Harris?
22 A At what -- I don't know if he said
23 arrested or if they are talking to two little boys.
24 I don't know which one he said.
82
1 Q So did he tell you the ages of the
2 little boys?
3 A It's a possibility that he did.
4 Q Do the ages seven and eight sound
5 about right?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And did it surprise you or shock you
8 when you heard this from Malone, that they were
9 talking to or they were charging little boys, two
10 little boys, that young with the murder of Ryan
11 Harris?
12 A You know, when you say shocked, not
13 particularly shocked. You know, I was concerned
14 because it seems as if during this day and age, and
15 especially back then, that offenders were getting
16 younger and younger and younger.
17 Q Okay. So you were concerned when he
18 told you that they either were talking to or were
19 arresting the seven and eight-year-old little boys
20 for the murder of Ryan Harris?
21 A I think, like I said, it's possible,
22 as I remember, that he said they were talking to
23 them.
24 Q Okay. Did he tell you what they --
83
1 what the nature of the talking to them was; in other
2 words, what they were talking to them about?
3 A No, no.
4 Q Did he tell you that they were talking
5 to them as suspects in the Ryan Harris case?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q But you knew enough to be -- what was
8 the word you used -- concerned about such young kids
9 being involved in a case like this, right?
10 A Right.
11 Q So you knew that they were somehow
12 being connected to the murder of Ryan Harris as
13 potential suspects, didn't you?
14 A Well, he said, as I remember -- as I
15 remember, you know, he said that they were talking to
16 them. He never said anything, as I remember, and
17 you're going back a few years, you know, but I don't
18 know anything about suspects or arresting or anything
19 like that.
20 Q Okay. When he called you, though, it
21 was a -- did you ask him any questions about what the
22 details of what they were talking to the children
23 were with regard to the murder of Ryan Harris?
24 A No.
84
1 Q Okay. Did he tell you that evening
2 that the parents or the grandparents of the children
3 were there when they were talking to these kids?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q Did you ask him?
6 A No, sir, and I'll tell you the reason
7 why is because I always --
8 MR. CROWE: There's no question pending.
9 THE WITNESS: Okay.
10 MR. CROWE: He didn't ask you why.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay.
12 MR. TAYLOR: All right. Well, I will. We're
13 all interested here.
14 BY MR. TAYLOR:
15 Q Why did you not?
16 A I don't talk over telephones, you
17 know.
18 Q So you didn't want to go into a lot of
19 detail over the telephone. Is that fair to say?
20 A Well, I don't go into details over the
21 telephone. You know, it's -- I don't micromanage.
22 Q Why don't you go into detail over the
23 telephone? Is there a particular reason?
24 A I don't trust telephones.
85
1 Q Okay. Did you ask Malone who the
2 detectives were who were talking to these kids or
3 questioning these kids?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q Did you know where it was occurring?
6 Did you know it was occurring at Area 1?
7 A If it was occurring -- just me knowing
8 -- being a chief of detectives, knowing it was
9 probably occurring in Area 1 because that's where the
10 crime happened, in Area 1.
11 Q Right. Did you -- after getting the
12 call from Malone, did you either go to Area 1 or make
13 a call down to Area 1 to find out any more
14 information?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q Did you know at that time that
17 Brannigan and Zaborac were working at Area 1?
18 MR. CROWE: You mean during the telephone
19 call?
20 MR. TAYLOR: Yeah, at that time.
21 BY MR. TAYLOR:
22 Q Were you aware that they were
23 supervisors at Area 1?
24 A That they were supervisors in the
86
1 Detective Division at Area 1.
2 Q Yes. You knew that?
3 A Yeah, I knew that they was assigned to
4 Area 1.
5 Q Okay. Did you know whether they were
6 involved in the questioning of the little boys that
7 Malone was telling you about?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q When Malone called, did he tell you
10 the names of the little boys?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q Did you ask him?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q And did you ask him whether the little
15 boys' parents or guardians were present in the Area
16 anywhere? Not necessarily that they were present
17 during the questioning, but were they present there
18 or not?
19 A No, sir.
20 MS. ROSEN: Can we take a quick break?
21 MR. TAYLOR: Sure. I was just about to.
22 (Brief recess.)
23 BY MR. TAYLOR:
24 Q In this phone conversation with Malone
87
1 on the evening of the 9th, did you ask him whether
2 they were going to arrest the little boys?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Okay. And he didn't tell you whether
5 they were or not; is that right?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Did you subsequently that evening
8 either get another call from Malone or make a call to
9 him to find out whether, in fact, they had arrested
10 or charged the little boys --
11 A No.
12 Q -- with the murder of Ryan Harris?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Did anyone call you, Ivanjack or
15 anyone else, to tell you that?
16 A Not that I remember, no, sir.
17 Q Okay. And the reason that you didn't
18 follow up was because the -- you felt that you didn't
19 want to micromanage this particular case; is that
20 right?
21 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
22 question.
23 BY MR. TAYLOR:
24 Q Is that right?
88
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Okay. Did you learn either later that
3 night or the next morning that, in fact, these little
4 boys that Malone told you about had been charged with
5 the murder of Ryan Harris?
6 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
7 question. Charged or arrested?
8 MR. TAYLOR: What was my --
9 MR. CROWE: You said charged.
10 BY MR. TAYLOR:
11 Q Did you learn that they had been
12 arrested for the murder of Ryan Harris?
13 A I believe it was the next morning at
14 the morning meeting, as I remember.
15 Q Okay. Did you hear it on the news
16 media prior to the morning meeting or was the first
17 that you actually heard that they had been arrested
18 was when you got to the morning meeting?
19 A I believe when I got to the morning
20 meeting.
21 Q When you talked to Malone, did you
22 discuss the possibility of arresting the children
23 for -- let me make this clear.
24 When you talked to Malone on the
89
1 evening of the 9th via the phone, did you discuss
2 with him the possibility of arresting the children?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q All right. Did you discuss whether
5 to -- what to charge the children with if they were
6 arrested?
7 A No, sir.
8 MR. CROWE: I'll object to the form of the
9 question. It's not his responsibility to charge.
10 It's the state's attorney's responsibility.
11 BY MR. TAYLOR:
12 Q Did you discuss what offense these
13 children would be arrested for if they were arrested?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q Now, at the briefing on the morning of
16 the 10th, that would have been around 9:00 o'clock in
17 the morning if that was your normal time of having
18 the briefing?
19 A Was that a Monday morning or --
20 Q Right. That would be the 10th.
21 A The 10th. About 9:00 o'clock we
22 probably had -- between 9:00 and 9:10 we would have
23 had the morning meeting.
24 Q Just one more question in terms of
90
1 that conversation on the 9th with Malone. Subsequent
2 to the conversation with Malone in which he told you
3 they had the little boys at Area 1 in connection with
4 the Ryan Harris case, did you do any follow-up
5 whatsoever with regard to the information that Malone
6 gave you?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q On the 10th at the early morning
9 briefing, who besides yourself and Malone was
10 present?
11 A Well, it would be the normal -- it
12 should have been the normal staff who would be there;
13 the first deputy, Deputy Malone, Jeannie Clark, the
14 superintendent's assistant, um, the acting press
15 secretary, the general counsel, the ADS from the
16 Internal Affairs Division, the administrator from
17 OPS, the deputy superintendent of Administrative
18 Services who is John Harris, and the deputy
19 superintendent of Technical Services who would be Jim
20 Whigham.
21 Q Was that during the time that there
22 wasn't -- that Gayle Shines had left the OPS and
23 before Callie Baird had taken over? Was it at that
24 period that --
91
1 A You know, I think Gayle Shines was --
2 this was in '98. Gayle Shines might have still been
3 here.
4 Q Do you remember who from OPS was
5 there, if anyone?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Okay.
8 A No, sir.
9 Q Now, who was the deputy superintendent
10 in charge of the IAD at that time? Was that Mike
11 Hoke or Risley?
12 A As I remember, it was either -- I
13 believe it was Mike Hoke at the time.
14 Q Okay. Now, at the briefing on the
15 10th did you ask Malone questions about the -- well,
16 let me ask you this.
17 How did it come up that the little
18 boys had been arrested for the murder of Ryan Harris
19 at this briefing on the 10th?
20 A As I remember, we would go around the
21 room and the first deputy would give his report, and
22 then Malone, he gave his report and stated that the
23 two little boys had been, I believe, arrested, as I
24 remember.
92
1 Q For the murder of Ryan Harris?
2 A Uh, yes.
3 Q And were you at all surprised or
4 shocked at that point?
5 A Like I said earlier, not shocked, just
6 concerned, you know.
7 Q And were you concerned because of the
8 young ages of the little boys?
9 A I was concerned because of the young
10 ages of the little boys, yes, sir.
11 Q And did Malone tell you anything
12 beyond the fact that the little boys had been
13 arrested for the murder of Ryan Harris?
14 A He probably mentioned their names, you
15 know, and that's all that I remember because, as I
16 remember, he didn't say that much at the morning
17 meeting.
18 Q Okay. Did he discuss with you what
19 the bases for the arrests were?
20 A No, not him. No.
21 Q Okay. Did someone at this meeting
22 tell you any details about the bases for the arrests
23 of the two little boys?
24 A No, sir.
93
1 Q So at -- and did you inquire of Malone
2 what the bases of the arrests were?
3 MR. CROWE: You mean at that particular
4 meeting?
5 MR. TAYLOR: Yeah, I'm talking now about the
6 morning of the 10th.
7 THE WITNESS: Not at that particular meeting,
8 no
9 BY MR. TAYLOR:
10 Q Again, was this because you didn't
11 want to micromanage the case at that point?
12 A Well, I just felt that the Detective
13 Division, they could handle the situation.
14 Q Well, had you ever heard of children
15 this young being arrested for murder?
16 A Not children this young, but children,
17 you know, young offenders, you know, that committed
18 some very heinous crimes.
19 Q But you're talking about children
20 nine, ten, 11 years old, that area?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q So these kids were younger than that,
23 right?
24 A Yes, sir.
94
1 Q And did it -- did you question in your
2 own mind whether children this young could commit the
3 heinous murder that you knew that the Ryan Harris
4 case was?
5 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
6 question.
7 BY MR. TAYLOR:
8 Q Or that the Ryan Harris murder was?
9 A No, I didn't question it. No.
10 Q Okay. Did either Malone or Camden
11 discuss at this meeting that they were planning to
12 have a press conference at Area 1 to discuss the
13 details of the evidence that they said supported the
14 arrest of the children?
15 A I don't remember that being discussed
16 at that morning meeting, no, sir.
17 Q Did anyone inform you that such a
18 press conference was going to be conducted at Area 1
19 on the 10th?
20 A I think I found out after.
21 Q So it wasn't -- you were not consulted
22 about whether to have that press conference; is that
23 right?
24 A No, and I have -- no, sir.
95
1 Q Okay. After you were informed that
2 such a press conference took place, did you consider
3 it to be an appropriate thing to do?
4 A Well, yes, it was an appropriate thing
5 to do. Why not.
6 Q Did you ever see the press conference
7 itself?
8 A I can't particularly say I did. You
9 know, I heard about it.
10 Q Did you ever see a transcript of what
11 was said at that press conference?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q But you generally heard the substance
14 of what was discussed by these officers and Sergeant
15 Zaborac at the press conference?
16 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
17 THE WITNESS: Say that again.
18 BY MR. TAYLOR:
19 Q But you did generally hear what the
20 substance was of what Sergeant Zaborac said at this
21 press conference?
22 MR. CROWE: Object to the lack of foundation.
23 You mean did he hear it?
24 MR. TAYLOR: Right.
96
1 THE WITNESS: I understand that he made a
2 statement, and one of his statements was that an
3 eight and a seven-year-old had been arrested for the
4 murder of Ryan Harris.
5 BY MR. TAYLOR:
6 Q And did you understand that he
7 discussed some of the evidence that he said supported
8 that arrest?
9 A No, I didn't hear that because I
10 didn't watch the press conference.
11 Q Would that be appropriate for him to
12 discuss evidence?
13 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
14 question.
15 THE WITNESS: Well, I can't answer that, you
16 know. You would have to ask that detective or
17 sergeant or Lieutenant Zaborac on that, you know,
18 because he was the acting lieutenant at that
19 particular time.
20 BY MR. TAYLOR:
21 Q Have you ever directed there be any
22 investigation into the conducting of the press
23 conference on the 10th?
24 A Have I ever --
97
1 Q Yes.
2 A -- directed that what?
3 Q That there be an internal
4 investigation as to the appropriateness of the press
5 conference and what was said there.
6 A No, sir.
7 Q All right. Are there certain
8 regulations that need to be followed with regard to
9 the holding of -- in terms of the department's
10 supplying of information to the media?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And if you violate those regulations,
13 then you could be subject to internal discipline; is
14 that right?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q But nothing that you knew of with
17 regard to the holding of that press conference
18 warranted any internal investigation into whether any
19 departmental rules or regulations had been violated;
20 is that right?
21 MR. CROWE: Objection to the form of the
22 question. He already said he doesn't know everything
23 that was said at the press conference.
24 THE WITNESS: I don't know everything that was
98
1 said at the press conference because I didn't view
2 that tape of that press conference.
3 BY MR. TAYLOR:
4 Q I understand that. But from what you
5 did know of the press conference, you didn't feel it
6 necessary to have any investigation, internal
7 investigation, done in order to determine whether it
8 was appropriate in light of the rules and regulations
9 of the police department. Is that fair to say?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q All right. When did you first hear
12 that Zaborac had held a press conference?
13 A It was probably about an hour after it
14 occurred.
15 Q And who told you?
16 A More than likely, Pat Camden probably
17 told me.
18 Q What did he say to you?
19 A That a press conference was held and
20 Stan Zaborac, uh, gave the press conference.
21 Q Were you aware that Zaborac had told
22 the press that they were certain that they had
23 arrested the right people?
24 A No, sir.
99
1 Q No?
2 A No.
3 Q Okay. Did you start to get inquiries
4 from the press concerning the arrest of the little
5 boys on the 10th?
6 A Well, me, per se, no, sir.
7 Q Did your office?
8 A Yeah, more than likely the press
9 office did.
10 Q Okay. And did you give any statement
11 to the press office to issue on behalf of yourself or
12 the superintendent's office with regard to the
13 arrests on the 10th? I'm talking about on the 10th.
14 A The 10th was Monday?
15 Q Monday, the day after the boys were
16 arrested at Area 1.
17 A I don't know. You know, I don't
18 remember if it was on the 10th or what. I know
19 following the arrests, you know, there was a number
20 of press conferences held. What date it was, I can't
21 truthfully say.
22 Q Okay. Well, did you make any public
23 appearances on the 10th, that being the day, that
24 Monday, the 10th?
100
1 A I couldn't say, Mr. Taylor.
2 Q Okay.
3 A I don't know if I had any public
4 appearances that day or not.
5 Q Do you remember fielding any questions
6 from the media with regard to the arrest of the
7 little boys on the 10th?
8 A Not to my recollection. I just -- I
9 couldn't say.
10 Q Did you quickly learn that it was a
11 major, major news item, the fact that such little
12 boys had been charged for such a serious murder?
13 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form.
14 THE WITNESS: I knew that it was a major news
15 item, you know.
16 BY MR. TAYLOR:
17 Q You knew that from the beginning?
18 A Well, I knew that it was a major,
19 major news item, you know, because Ryan Harris,
20 whatever happened in the Ryan Harris case was going
21 to be major.
22 Q But did you quickly learn that because
23 such young boys had been charged with such a serious
24 crime that it made it an even more major news item
101
1 than it would have been otherwise?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form.
4 BY MR. TAYLOR:
5 Q And were you concerned for the -- I
6 take it, you were concerned for the family of Ryan
7 Harris; is that right?
8 MR. CROWE: Objection. Foundation.
9 THE WITNESS: When you say, "concerned" --
10 BY MR. TAYLOR:
11 Q Well, you were concerned about what
12 they had gone through and held sympathy for them?
13 A Well, not only for Ryan Harris, but
14 for the entire community, the entire city, you know.
15 Q Were you also concerned about these
16 two little boys and what it might do to them to be
17 charged with such a serious crime?
18 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
19 question.
20 THE WITNESS: You're always concerned about
21 kids. You know, whether they're the victims or
22 offenders, you're always concerned about kids.
23 BY MR. TAYLOR:
24 Q And did you have any question in your 102
1 mind as to whether kids this young could form an
2 intent to murder a young girl?
3 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
4 question.
5 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
6 BY MR. TAYLOR:
7 Q That wasn't a question in your mind?
8 A Um-um.
9 Q Was that discussed at the briefing on
10 the 10th?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q All right. When Malone mentioned --
13 briefed you and told you the fact that the little
14 boys had -- their names and that they had been
15 arrested for the murder of Ryan Harris, did you ask
16 him any questions about the arrests or about the
17 case?
18 A I think --
19 MR. CROWE: I'm sorry. At the morning
20 meeting?
21 MR. TAYLOR: Yes, at the morning meeting on
22 the 10th.
23 THE WITNESS: I think one of the things that I
24 asked Mike is -- I believe I asked him one question
103
1 and I asked him -- I forget what it was now, but I
2 think I might have asked him one question.
3 BY MR. TAYLOR:
4 Q Do you remember without -- anything
5 about the question, generally what it was about?
6 A No, no.
7 Q Okay.
8 A I think I might have asked one
9 question.
10 Q Do you remember his answer without
11 remembering the question?
12 A No.
13 Q Did anyone else at the briefing ask
14 Malone any questions about the arrest of the little
15 boys in the Ryan Harris case at this briefing on the
16 10th?
17 A You know, one or two of the deputies
18 might have had a question or two. What they were, I
19 don't know.
20 Q All right. Did you -- and you don't
21 remember either if there were questions, what they
22 were and what the responses were by Malone?
23 A No, sir.
24 Q Okay. Now, did you at some point on
104
1 the 10th or the 11th decide that you wanted to hear
2 more detail about the circumstances of the arrests of
3 the little boys?
4 A I believe it was on the 11th. I think
5 that was Tuesday.
6 Q Was this while you were -- was there a
7 CAPS conference, a Community Policing conference,
8 that was going on at the Hyatt --
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q -- in Chicago?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And were you speaking at that
13 conference on the 11th?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Were you then conducting your morning
16 briefings at the Hyatt on the 11th, your command
17 briefing at the Hyatt on the 11th, rather than at
18 your offices?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Now, let me ask you and go back for a
21 minute to the briefing on the 10th. Was the briefing
22 on the 10th at your normal office or was that also
23 downtown at the hotel?
24 A As I remember, I think it was at my
105
1 office at 11th and State.
2 Q So the first briefing we're talking
3 about, which was on the 10th, Monday the 10th, was at
4 your office, but the next day you were at the CAPS
5 conference so that your briefing was there; is that
6 right?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Did you make a determination on the
9 11th to have some of the people who were more
10 familiar with the arrest of the children to come in
11 and appear at your briefing?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Okay. Do you know -- and why did you
14 do that?
15 A What do you mean why did I do that?
16 Q Why did you decide that you needed
17 more information concerning the arrest of the
18 children?
19 A I wanted the supervisors that -- I
20 wanted the Violent Crimes lieutenant and the sergeant
21 who was in charge of the case to come down and give
22 us a briefing and give us a little update and show us
23 where they were.
24 Q Did you want to question them to
106
1 determine whether they had made the right decision in
2 arresting these little boys?
3 A No, sir, I didn't want to question
4 them. I just wanted them to come down and give us an
5 update before we started our CAPS conference because
6 I was due to give a major speech at 12:00 o'clock and
7 after that was going to be press availability.
8 Q So you wanted -- you knew that the
9 press was going to ask you some questions about the
10 Ryan Harris case? You anticipated that?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And you wanted the people who had more
13 information about the Ryan Harris arrest to brief you
14 so that you would be more able to answer any
15 questions that the press might have. Is that fair to
16 say?
17 A Well, not so much as answer all the
18 questions the press was going to put towards me, but
19 so I would have some knowledge, some brief knowledge,
20 not an in-depth briefing of what this case was about.
21 Q Did you intend to review whether, in
22 fact, the detectives and the sergeants involved in
23 the arrest of the children for the Ryan Harris murder
24 had, in fact, made the right decision or not?
107
1 A Did I intend to review it?
2 Q Yes. Was that one of the purposes --
3 A No, sir.
4 Q -- of the briefing?
5 A Categorically, no.
6 Q You at that point were not doing any
7 kind of review of the propriety of the arrests when
8 you brought the people from Area 1 down on the 11th
9 to speak to you at your briefing; is that right?
10 A Right, sir.
11 Q All right. Now, I want to mark this
12 300.
13 (Exhibit marked and tendered to
14 witness.)
15 Now, this is a Xeroxed copy of the
16 front-page article of the Chicago Tribune that
17 appeared on the morning of Tuesday, August 11th.
18 Do you remember generally seeing the
19 newspapers on the 11th and a headline similar to
20 this, "Police Say Suspects Not Too Small To Kill"?
21 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form.
22 THE WITNESS: You know, I can't say that I saw
23 this because Tuesday was a big day for us, probably
24 the biggest day the Chicago Police Department ever
108
1 had in a long time, you know, and we were not in our
2 regular meeting that day. So I don't know if news
3 clips were brought over that day. I don't remember.
4 BY MR. TAYLOR:
5 Q Well, do you remember seeing the paper
6 either in the news boxes or laying on somebody's desk
7 or something with the headline, the banner headline,
8 "Police Say Suspects Not Too Small To Kill"?
9 A Like I said before, Mr. Taylor, I
10 can't remember if I saw this.
11 Q You don't remember whether you saw
12 this or not. Okay. I want to call your attention to
13 the third page of this exhibit, and particularly I
14 want to call your attention to the final column
15 there.
16 About halfway down the paragraph --
17 halfway down the column it says, "On Monday morning."
18 Do you see that paragraph that I'm calling your
19 attention to?
20 A Um-hum.
21 MR. CROWE: Let me get with you too, Flint.
22 Oh, I see it. Okay. Thanks.
23 BY MR. TAYLOR:
24 Q "On Monday morning Sabrina Harris, the
109
1 victim's mother, appeared in juvenile court in hope
2 of seeing the two boys. She expressed doubt that
3 such small boys could have overpowered her daughter.
4 'She had two sisters, one seven and one eight, and
5 she could run circles around them,' Harris said.
6 'She was a tomboy. She was strong.'"
7 Do you remember reading that
8 information on or about Tuesday, the 11th?
9 MR. CROWE: I'll object to the form of the
10 question. He said he didn't see this article.
11 THE WITNESS: I don't remember seeing this.
12 BY MR. TAYLOR:
13 Q Okay. Do you remember having that
14 information called to your attention in some form?
15 A Probably somewhere down the line, you
16 know.
17 Q Do you remember when it was first
18 called to your attention?
19 A Well, I couldn't really say, you know.
20 Q Did you become aware in the first few
21 days after the little boys were arrested that, in
22 fact, the case had become not only -- had a lot of
23 notoriety locally, but it had notoriety nationally
24 and even internationally?
110
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And did you realize that there was a
3 whole lot of attention being paid to the case and
4 particularly to the fact of -- that such little boys
5 were being charged with such a serious crime?
6 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
7 question.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
9 BY MR. TAYLOR:
10 Q Okay. Did that cause you to want to
11 take a closer look at the case?
12 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form.
13 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
14 BY MR. TAYLOR:
15 Q So would it be fair to say that you
16 didn't pay any more attention to this case than to
17 any other serious murder case that would arise in the
18 community?
19 A I never said that.
20 Q Did you pay more attention to it than
21 the normal murder case that arose in the city?
22 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form.
23 MR. CROWE: I'll object to the form, too,
24 because what's the normal murder case?
111
1 THE WITNESS: I paid attention to it.
2 BY MR. TAYLOR:
3 Q Okay. Now, when you summoned the
4 sergeants to come down to speak to the briefing on
5 the 11th, who did you ask to do that?
6 A I believe that I would probably have
7 gone through Deputy Malone.
8 Q Okay. Did you know who the persons
9 were that he was going to bring down to talk to you
10 about the case?
11 A Not until after they came in the room.
12 Q So you didn't request -- did you make
13 any specific request with regard to who you wanted to
14 come down?
15 A No.
16 Q You just said you wanted someone who
17 knew about the case?
18 A The Violent Crimes lieutenant and the
19 sergeant who was in charge of the case.
20 Q That's what you asked for?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And the acting Violent Crimes
23 lieutenant turned out to be Stan Zaborac --
24 A Yes, sir.
112
1 Q -- who you knew?
2 A Yes.
3 Q And the supervising sergeant turned
4 out to be Brannigan --
5 A Yes.
6 Q -- who you also knew, right?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q About what time did they arrive at
9 this briefing?
10 A It was in the morning. I would say
11 probably about 9:00 or 10:00 o'clock, somewhere
12 around about that time.
13 Q Again, was it at the Hyatt Regency?
14 Is that where it was?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q And you had a conference room there
17 where you held your briefing?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Who was present that day?
20 A The normal people who would normally
21 sit in on the morning meeting.
22 Q So, again, we have the deputy
23 superintendents?
24 A Yeah.
113
1 Q And the first deputy, Townsend?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q And we have Camden? Was he there?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And Needham, the lawyer?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And whoever was there from OPS?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q And Mike Hoke, if he was the assistant
10 superintendent for IAD?
11 A Assistant deputy superintendent.
12 Q Okay. Anyone else who was present?
13 A Well, the other deputy
14 superintendents; Deputy Superintendent Whigham,
15 Deputy Superintendent John Harris, Deputy
16 Superintendent Jean Clark; naturally, Deputy
17 Superintendent Mike Malone, First Deputy
18 Superintendent John Townsend, and the commander at
19 that particular time for the superintendent, my
20 administrative assistant. You know, those would be
21 the people who would there be.
22 Q That would be Meinke?
23 A M-a-h-n-k-e, I think.
24 Q Okay. I suppose we can get it right
114
1 off of here. M-a-h-n-k-e, according to the sheets
2 here. Those are the same people who were present the
3 day before on the 10th at the briefing?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Now, at this briefing on the 11th was
6 Chief of Detectives Ivanjack also there?
7 A It's a possibility that he could have
8 been. It's a very good possibility that he could
9 have been there.
10 Q Now, were there any notes or
11 recordings being taken of this particular briefing?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q And when these -- Zaborac and
14 Brannigan then entered the room, did they then -- why
15 don't you tell us what happened at this meeting.
16 A Well, what would happen is we
17 conducted our meeting, and then after the meeting was
18 over we asked -- the deputy superintendent asked the
19 two sergeants to come in to explain to us, told the
20 rest of the body who they were, and asked them to
21 give them a short synopsis of what occurred.
22 Q Okay. Now, you say that you -- the
23 rest of the meeting had gone on before the sergeants
24 had been brought in?
115
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Had you discussed the Ryan Harris case
3 at all outside of their presence at the briefing on
4 the 11th before you brought them in?
5 A Not that I remember.
6 Q Did you discuss with any of the
7 people, whether it be Townsend or Needham or Malone,
8 what questions to ask these sergeants about the Ryan
9 Harris case prior to their coming into the meeting?
10 MR. CROWE: I'm sorry. The questions of
11 Needham in the presence of all the other people,
12 right, so as to distinguish it from any private
13 conversation he had with Needham within the
14 attorney-client privilege?
15 MR. TAYLOR: Right. Well, this is -- I'm
16 talking about at the briefing.
17 MR. CROWE: Okay.
18 BY MR. TAYLOR:
19 Q At the briefing prior to the sergeants
20 coming in, did you have any discussions with any of
21 the participants in the briefing about what you were
22 going to ask the sergeants about the case?
23 A No, I didn't have to discuss or have
24 to tell folks what questions I ask. These guys are a
116
1 lot more experienced than Terry Hillard was at that
2 particular time, so if they had questions to ask,
3 they would ask them, you know.
4 Q But you were the only one who had
5 previously been the chief of detectives of all the
6 people sitting there, right?
7 MR. CROWE: Objection. Argumentative, and to
8 the form of the question.
9 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think so.
10 BY MR. TAYLOR:
11 Q Well, was there anyone else that had
12 commanded the Detective Division directly as the
13 chief of detectives other than yourself that was at
14 the briefing?
15 A I thought Jack Townsend was the chief
16 of detectives at one time. I don't know, you know.
17 But being chief of detectives, that -- you know, just
18 because you was chief of detectives doesn't mean that
19 you -- that, you know, you were the Bible.
20 Q The Bible?
21 A Yeah, you know.
22 Q Uh-huh. So you were counting on --
23 even though you called the meeting, you were counting
24 on others to ask the appropriate questions of these
117
1 sergeants with regard to the Ryan Harris case at the
2 briefing. Is that fair to say?
3 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the question
4 as to what he was counting on.
5 THE WITNESS: I wasn't counting on them.
6 BY MR. TAYLOR:
7 Q Relying on them.
8 A No, I wanted the sergeants to come in
9 and give the body a short briefing on what had
10 occurred, you know. I wasn't counting on anybody to
11 ask anything. If they had questions to ask, they
12 would ask.
13 Q Had you any questions? Had you
14 formulated any specific questions you wanted to ask
15 them?
16 A I think the one thing that I asked is
17 how do we know that these young kids are involved.
18 Q That's a question that you actually
19 asked?
20 A Yeah.
21 Q All right. Now, was that the first
22 question that they were actually asked?
23 A I don't remember whether it was the
24 first question, second question.
118
1 Q Did you ask them to bring any reports
2 for you or the others in the briefing to review?
3 A I don't remember asking anybody to
4 bring in reports.
5 Q Did they, in fact, bring any reports
6 to the briefing on the 11th for you all to review?
7 A As I remember, as the sergeants came
8 in, they had folders in their hand. I don't remember
9 them giving them to anybody to review because we
10 didn't have that much time to review anything.
11 Q Okay. How long did the portion of the
12 briefing that the sergeants were present for, how
13 long did that take?
14 A Probably no more than ten, 15 minutes,
15 as I remember. Ten, 15 minutes at the most.
16 Q Who did most of the talking?
17 A I think Lieutenant Zaborac, Stan
18 Zaborac.
19 Q Okay. And you say you asked them the
20 question how do we know these boys did it? Is that
21 right?
22 A Um-hum.
23 Q Did I repeat that correctly?
24 A How do we know that they were
119
1 involved.
2 Q All right. And you asked that
3 question because you wanted to have information to
4 respond to the press later on in the day?
5 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form.
6 THE WITNESS: No, no.
7 BY MR. TAYLOR:
8 Q Why did you ask that particular
9 question?
10 A I asked that question because I felt
11 that was a question to ask coming from me, how do we
12 know they are involved.
13 Q And you thought it was appropriate
14 conning from you?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Why did you think it was appropriate
17 coming from you?
18 A Because I wanted to know, you know,
19 how did we know that they were involved.
20 Q Did you have any question in your own
21 mind about whether the children might have actually
22 been involved?
23 A No. I wanted to hear it from the two
24 sergeants.
120
1 Q What did they say or what -- did
2 Zaborac respond to your question?
3 A As I remember, Zaborac responded to my
4 question.
5 Q Okay. And what did he say?
6 A They had certain knowledge, certain
7 facts about the body, that only anybody who had been
8 near or around this particular incident knew about,
9 and that was it.
10 Q That was his response?
11 A That was his response.
12 Q That they knew things that only people
13 who had been around the body would have known?
14 A Yeah.
15 Q "They," meaning the kids, right?
16 A Yes.
17 Q Did he tell you or did you ask him any
18 more detail about what knowledge that Zaborac said
19 these kids had that only --
20 A No, I did not.
21 Q Did someone else?
22 A Not that I remember. No one else.
23 Q All right. And what else did --
24 strike that.
121
1 What other questions were asked other
2 than the question that you asked?
3 A Well, as I remember, there was a
4 couple other questions asked of those two sergeants.
5 The specifics of them, I couldn't tell you. I don't
6 remember. But I know there was a couple people asked
7 them a couple other questions and that was it.
8 Q Did Townsend ask them anything?
9 A I couldn't tell you that.
10 Q Did Malone ask them anything?
11 A You would have to ask Malone. I don't
12 know.
13 Q You don't remember?
14 A I don't remember.
15 Q Other than them saying that there was
16 information that these kids had that only persons who
17 had been involved with the body would have, what
18 other information did the sergeants say during this
19 meeting?
20 A That was it as far as they told about
21 the two kids, their age, um, told about Ryan Harris,
22 that they had not been able to locate the bicycle,
23 that they had certain evidence over at the forensic
24 laboratory that was waiting to be analyzed and
122
1 processed, and that they were going to continue with
2 their canvassing and try to interview people from
3 that respective neighborhood.
4 Q Did they tell you what evidence that
5 they had over at the forensic laboratory that they
6 were waiting on to be analyzed?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q Did you know at that time that there
9 were panties that had been found in the mouth of Ryan
10 Harris?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q Did they tell you that in the -- so
13 they didn't mention that in the briefing?
14 A No, sir. No.
15 Q Did you know whether those panties had
16 been tested to see if there was semen on them?
17 A No, sir.
18 MR. CROWE: On the 11th?
19 MR. TAYLOR: Yeah, I'm talking now about on
20 the 11th.
21 THE WITNESS: No.
22 BY MR. TAYLOR:
23 Q Did you or anyone else ask these
24 sergeants anything about the physical evidence; in
123
1 other words, any details about what physical evidence
2 that they were waiting for tests on?
3 A No, sir, I didn't ask.
4 Q Did anyone else?
5 A I don't know. After the meeting, you
6 know, somebody might have had some private
7 conversation with them, but, you know, publicly, I
8 don't remember anybody asking, you know. I know I
9 didn't ask.
10 Q Did they talk about what the murder
11 weapon was or what their investigation showed the
12 murder weapon was?
13 A Well, one -- I believe it was
14 Brannigan stated that it seemed as though she had
15 been involved in an altercation and somebody had
16 threw a rock and that was it.
17 Q Did he say whether there was any
18 evidence to connect the boys to the rock that was
19 thrown at her?
20 A From what I remember, he said that
21 these kids was involved with a group of kids who had
22 thrown a rock or rocks at Ryan Harris.
23 Q Okay. And you knew from your previous
24 knowledge of the case that she had had a blunt trauma
124
1 to the head?
2 A That's what I had seen.
3 Q Okay. And did they, Brannigan or
4 Zaborac, tell you that the blunt trauma to the head
5 had been caused by the thrown rock?
6 A No.
7 Q Did you make that --
8 A No, no.
9 Q -- connection in your head?
10 A That's the connection that I had made.
11 Q You made that connection. Did you ask
12 any questions about whether the medical evidence
13 supported the fact that a thrown rock could have
14 caused the blunt trauma to the head?
15 A No, I didn't ask any questions.
16 Q So from what -- the impression --
17 strike that.
18 So from what you understood from what
19 was being told to you at the briefing was that the
20 little boys had been involved with a group of boys
21 that threw a rock or rocks at Ryan Harris and that
22 caused her death by the blunt trauma to the head?
23 A Well, that was my approximation.
24 That's what I assumed.
125
1 Q Okay. From what you heard?
2 A Yeah, from what I heard.
3 Q And given your experience as an
4 investigator and police officer for 30 or 34 years,
5 did it occur to you whether a thrown rock by a
6 seven-year-old or an eight-year-old could possibly
7 inflict a blunt trauma to an 11-year-old girl
8 sufficient to kill her?
9 MR. CROWE: Objection to the form of the
10 question.
11 THE WITNESS: Well, I had no idea on how large
12 the rock was, you know, who threw it, you know.
13 BY MR. TAYLOR:
14 Q Did you make any inquiry about that?
15 A No.
16 Q Did anyone else?
17 A I know I didn't --
18 Q Well, you didn't --
19 A -- but as far as anybody else, I can't
20 speak for anybody else.
21 Q Okay. Did they say anything to you
22 about any injury to Ryan Harris' vagina or hymen or
23 sexual organs?
24 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
126
1 question, the nebulous "they."
2 BY MR. TAYLOR:
3 Q "They," meaning either of the
4 sergeants.
5 A Brannigan and Zaborac, no.
6 Q Right.
7 A No, not to me, no, sir.
8 Q Were you aware on the 11th when you
9 were participating in this briefing with Zaborac and
10 Brannigan that there had been, according to the
11 medical examiner, an injury to the vagina of Ryan
12 Harris?
13 A Not that day, no, sir.
14 Q You learned that subsequently?
15 A Subsequently, later on.
16 Q After the charges were dropped against
17 the boys?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Now, did they say anything about the
20 girl having suffered any suffocation as part of her
21 injury -- "they," meaning Brannigan or Zaborac -- at
22 the briefing?
23 A No. As I remember, they really didn't
24 get off into details, specifics such as that, as I
127
1 remember.
2 Q Okay. How about any leaves being
3 placed in the girl's nose or the girl's mouth or any
4 other part of her body? Did they say anything about
5 any evidence concerning leaves at this briefing?
6 A I remember something about some
7 leaves, yeah.
8 Q What do you remember about leaves?
9 A Uh, that some leaves or leaves was
10 found in her nostrils or something like that.
11 Q Okay. Did they say who placed those
12 leaves in the nostrils?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q They did not?
15 A No.
16 Q Did they say anything about the body
17 having been moved at any time?
18 A No.
19 Q Did they say anything about there
20 being any marks on the body, drag marks or any other
21 kind of abrasions or marks on the body?
22 A I don't think -- as I remember, not at
23 that briefing, no.
24 Q Did you learn that sometime
128
1 subsequent?
2 A I learned it subsequently, later on
3 down the line.
4 Q How long? How much later down the
5 line?
6 A I would say probably right after the
7 charges had been dropped.
8 Q Okay. Now, from this briefing did you
9 learn that the children had, according to the police,
10 made statements?
11 MR. CROWE: I'll object to the form of the
12 question because he's already answered that they made
13 statements knowing things that only those who would
14 be involved knew. He's answered that.
15 MR. TAYLOR: No, I don't think so. But you
16 can --
17 MR. CROWE: Oh, all right. Okay. Then I'll
18 withdraw the objection.
19 THE WITNESS: What was the question?
20 MR. TAYLOR: Can you read it back, please.
21 (Record read.)
22 THE WITNESS: I think I learned further down
23 the line that the children had made statements
24 pertaining to that, you know.
129
1 BY MR. TAYLOR:
2 Q When did you first learn that the
3 children had made statements pertaining to it?
4 A Let me back up here.
5 Q Sure.
6 A When Stan Zaborac -- when I made the
7 question, you know, how do we know they were
8 involved, I think I said, and they said they knew
9 things about the body that only people who had been
10 in and around the body, that incident, that only
11 somebody who had been around that incident would know
12 about.
13 Q Okay. So you took -- at the time did
14 you take that to mean that the children made some
15 statements?
16 A Yeah, because they were talking to
17 them.
18 Q But you didn't find out any of the
19 details of what the statements consisted of at that
20 time?
21 A No.
22 Q Did they tell you what circumstances
23 the statements were given in?
24 A What do you mean?
130
1 Q Well, in terms of who was present,
2 that kind of thing.
3 MR. CROWE: You're talking about the 11th?
4 MR. TAYLOR: Yeah, the briefing on the 11th.
5 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat that for me?
6 (Record read.)
7 Okay. I assumed that the detectives
8 and the Youth officers were present.
9 BY MR. TAYLOR:
10 Q Okay. But did they tell you that?
11 A No.
12 Q So you made an assumption that --
13 A Yes.
14 Q Did they tell you whether the parents
15 or the grandparents were present when these
16 statements or statement were given by the little
17 boys?
18 A No.
19 Q Did you ask?
20 A No.
21 Q Did anyone else ask?
22 A Not that I remember.
23 Q All right. Did Zaborac or Brannigan
24 say anything about the ability of either of these
131
1 children to speak coherently?
2 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form.
3 MR. CROWE: Well, I don't think he's --
4 I thought you hadn't finished your
5 question.
6 MR. TAYLOR: No, I did.
7 MR. CROWE: Oh, okay.
8 THE WITNESS: No.
9 BY MR. TAYLOR:
10 Q And did either of them tell you that
11 the littlest boy, the seven-year-old, had a speech
12 impediment?
13 A No, no.
14 Q Did they tell you in any way how the
15 statements were given? In other words, were they
16 question and answer, were they narrative form, were
17 they some combination of both? Was that --
18 A No, sir.
19 Q -- told to you?
20 A No, sir.
21 Q Did you ask any questions to determine
22 how the statements were given?
23 A No, sir.
24 Q Did anyone else in your presence?
132
1 A At that briefing?
2 Q Yeah, at that briefing.
3 A Not that I remember.
4 Q Okay. And did you have any concerns
5 at that time about whether such little kids could
6 give statements which were either -- were credible?
7 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form, foundation.
8 BY MR. TAYLOR:
9 Q Let me ask a different question. Did
10 you have any concerns that such little kids could be
11 easily intimidated or -- intimidated into giving
12 statements that wouldn't be accurate?
13 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
14 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
15 question.
16 THE WITNESS: You know, I can't answer that
17 because I wasn't there. I don't know if they were
18 intimidated.
19 BY MR. TAYLOR:
20 Q I know. I'm not asking you that. I'm
21 asking you as you sat there listening to the briefing
22 and knew that some kind of statements had been given,
23 according to the police, did you have any concerns in
24 your mind as to whether these statements were --
133
1 could have been the product of coercion or
2 intimidation?
3 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
4 MR. CROWE: I'll object to the form of the
5 question.
6 THE WITNESS: I wish I could answer that. The
7 only thing I can tell you is that, you know, you're
8 always concerned when you have young folks involved
9 in situations such as this. But to say that, you
10 know, this is -- this was a new avenue.
11 BY MR. TAYLOR:
12 Q This was what?
13 A A new avenue, not only for this
14 department, but all across the country with young,
15 youthful offenders, suspects such as this.
16 Q Well, were you aware of any ways that
17 the police department had in place to deal with the
18 questioning of young children in order to assure that
19 they were not intimidated or coerced into giving
20 statements that were not true?
21 MS. ROSEN: Object to the form.
22 MR. CROWE: I'll object to the form, too.
23 THE WITNESS: I believe that's what the Youth
24 officers' role is to play.
134
1 BY MR. TAYLOR:
2 Q The youth officers' role is to make
3 sure that they are not intimidated?
4 A And look out for the -- not only the
5 well-being of those youthful offenders, youthful
6 suspects, of the people being questioned, but to act
7 as an advocate for those young folks.
8 Q Did you ask any questions of any of --
9 either of the sergeants at the briefing on the 11th
10 as to whether there was any element of intimidation
11 or coercion or anything like that with regard to the
12 children?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Did anyone else?
15 A Not that I remember, no, sir.
16 Q Similarly, was it a concern of yours
17 that such young children could be easily suggestible
18 in terms of whether they had been asked leading
19 questions or had information suggested to them that
20 they might, in order to please the police, repeat
21 things that they really didn't have any knowledge of?
22 Was that a concern that you had at the
23 briefing on the 11th when considering what Zaborac
24 and Brannigan were telling you?
135
1 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the multiple
2 questions and --
3 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
4 MR. CROWE: -- also the foundation and lack
5 thereof.
6 THE WITNESS: Mr. Taylor, the only thing I can
7 tell you is Dan Brannigan and Stan Zaborac are two
8 very competent, very articulate, very kind
9 individuals who I got a lot of confidence in and --
10 BY MR. TAYLOR:
11 Q But to answer my question, was it or
12 was it not a concern?
13 MR. CROWE: Have you finished your answer?
14 THE WITNESS: People I got a lot of confidence
15 in. And anyone who suggests that they were coerced
16 and intimidated, even young offenders or old
17 offenders, you know, I just take issue with that.
18 BY MR. TAYLOR:
19 Q Well, what I'm asking you is
20 whether -- I think my question was about the
21 suggestibility of young children and whether it was a
22 concern of yours that children of these tender ages
23 could have things suggested to them through
24 questioning that they might repeat and that, in fact,
136
1 they didn't have the knowledge that they said they
2 had.
3 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
4 MR. CROWE: I'll object to the form of the
5 question because it's been asked and answered. He
6 said it wasn't a concern because of the confidence he
7 had in his officers.
8 MR. TAYLOR: Is that a -- well, why don't we
9 hear it from him.
10 THE WITNESS: Yeah. You know, I really do
11 believe that these two individuals, you know, would
12 not allow anything like that to happen.
13 BY MR. TAYLOR:
14 Q Did you know whether Zaborac and
15 Brannigan had done the questioning themselves or
16 whether the questioning was done by other officers?
17 A No, I don't know.
18 Q So, I take it, then you didn't ask any
19 questions nor were any questions asked concerning
20 whether the information that the children had said
21 was suggested to them during the questioning in one
22 form or another?
23 A No, sir.
24 Q Now, at some point was it -- strike
137
1 that.
2 Was anyone, did anyone draw any
3 conclusions in this briefing as to whether the
4 officers who had arrested the children had acted
5 properly?
6 A I think that, you know, when they got
7 through with that briefing, we felt that they had
8 acted properly.
9 Q Okay. And did you -- did anyone
10 articulate that in the meeting, yourself or any of
11 the deputy superintendents or anyone else, legal
12 counsel or anyone else, articulate that they had,
13 according to what they had told you, what Zaborac and
14 Brannigan had told you, that they had acted
15 appropriately?
16 A I think that, uh, it was seen and
17 agreed upon that they acted properly. We had no
18 reservations about it.
19 Q And did you say that to each other or
20 are you just making that assumption?
21 A No, no one said anything differently.
22 Q Okay. So there wasn't anything said,
23 but because nobody raised any concerns or said that
24 they had a problem with it, you're assuming that
138
1 everybody thought that they had acted properly?
2 A No red flags or anything like that
3 went up, you know. They finished their briefing, we
4 said thank you, and as they were walking out, I
5 guess, maybe one or two deputy superintendents might
6 have said something to them on the side, you know,
7 privately, and that was it.
8 Q Did you yourself ever say to them that
9 they had acted properly, in your opinion?
10 A Well, it wasn't -- no. No, I didn't.
11 Q Did Needham or any of the deputy
12 superintendents say to them, you acted properly?
13 A I don't remember that being said.
14 Q Okay. All right. So you say this
15 took, what, ten, 15 minutes?
16 A I think about probably ten, 15
17 minutes.
18 Q And after that sometime later in the
19 day you had a press conference or -- was it a press
20 conference?
21 A I don't think it was so much that as
22 it was press availability.
23 Q So the press was attending your speech
24 at the CAPS conference?
139
1 A Right.
2 Q And afterwards they then asked you
3 questions?
4 A As I remember, yes, sir.
5 Q Okay. And were at least some of the
6 questions, if not most of them, directed toward the
7 arrest of the little boys in the Ryan Harris case?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form.
10 BY MR. TAYLOR:
11 Q Was there an unusually large number of
12 press there that day?
13 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form.
14 MR. CROWE: Yeah, I'll object to form, too.
15 THE WITNESS: Well, it would be for a number
16 of reasons because we had over six, 700 people from
17 across the world attending our CAPS conference, for
18 one thing, and the press had been invited.
19 And then the next thing, you know,
20 this case surely was at the top of the list with the
21 media.
22 BY MR. TAYLOR:
23 Q Okay. Would you say that the main
24 focus of the media at this press conference or --
140
1 that happened after your speech was the Ryan Harris
2 case and the arrest of the children?
3 A Well, I don't think the main focus,
4 no, was -- you know, they were also to attend and to
5 report on the Community Alternative Policing Strategy
6 conference.
7 Q But what I'm asking you is in terms of
8 the questions directed at you, was it primarily
9 questions about the Ryan Harris case?
10 A There was a number of questions about
11 the Ryan Harris case, yeah.
12 Q Now, I want to show you what I'm going
13 to mark as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 301, which is a
14 transcription of certain remarks attributed to you in
15 various TV clips that we have.
16 (Exhibit marked and tendered to
17 witness.)
18 You don't need to look at all of this
19 right now. I'm going to call your attention to
20 certain remarks here and ask you whether you made
21 these comments.
22 I'm looking now at page 1 of this
23 document and it says, "WMAQ, Hillard," and then it
24 says, "Number 1, 8/11/98, 6:00 p.m., 10:00 p.m.
141
1 news," and it has a quote attributed to you.
2 "Two to three weeks ago it was the
3 press coming to me and asking me, when are you going
4 to solve this case, when are you going to solve this
5 case. Now that it's solved, then we, on the other
6 hand, well, you got the wrong folks. It's tragic
7 that a seven and eight-year-old can be involved in an
8 incident such as this, but it happens."
9 Did you give this statement at this
10 CAPS conference which was reflected in this
11 transcription of the channel 5 news of the 6:00
12 o'clock news in this document?
13 A I don't know if it was given at -- to
14 the conference itself. It was probably --
15 Q It was --
16 A It was probably --
17 Q -- in your remarks to the press after
18 the conference?
19 A Yes, yes
20 Q And is this accurate?
21 A I would assume it is.
22 Q Okay.
23 A You know, I don't know. I would
24 assume it is.
142
1 Q I'm looking on page 3, and it's WFLD,
2 which is channel 32, their 9:00 o'clock news, and it
3 has the commentator saying, "Prosecution and police
4 commissioner defend the investigation and murder
5 charge," and then it quotes you, basically the same
6 quote again that you -- so, I would take it, that was
7 a quote that you gave and that was used by multiple
8 media outlets here in the City of Chicago; is that
9 right?
10 MS. ROSEN: Object to form.
11 MR. SHEEHAN: Do you understand the question?
12 THE WITNESS: No.
13 MR. CROWE: Why don't you read it back.
14 (Record read.)
15 THE WITNESS: I assume it was, yes.
16 BY MR. TAYLOR:
17 Q Okay. And, again, your conclusion
18 that the case was solved was based on the information
19 you had received from Malone on the 9th and the 10th
20 and also the briefing you had on the 11th. Is that
21 the basis for your comments here as reflected on the
22 11th?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q Anything else other than those items?
143
1 A No, sir.
2 Q All right. Now, did you have another
3 occasion to talk to the press on the 12th of August?
4 MR. CROWE: Do you have something here that
5 shows that?
6 MR. TAYLOR: Yeah.
7 MR. CROWE: Which one?
8 MR. TAYLOR: Well, I'm looking at a couple of
9 quotes that are --
10 MR. CROWE: Can I show this to him?
11 MR. TAYLOR: Yeah.
12 MR. CROWE: The bottom of the page.
13 BY MR. TAYLOR:
14 Q They're both on WFLD, their 9:00
15 o'clock, and WLS on 9:00 o'clock, and they both quote
16 you as saying, "This is the United States of America.
17 People can say what they want to say, but the letter
18 of the law was followed in this case." They both
19 have you saying that.
20 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form. Your own
21 document isn't clear that WFLD actually said that at
22 9:00 p.m. on August 12th. There's a question mark
23 next to that. I don't know what that question mark
24 means because it's your document.
144
1 MR. TAYLOR: I think that's a typo.
2 BY MR. TAYLOR:
3 Q Do you remember giving a similar quote
4 to that in response to criticism that -- about how
5 you were handling the Harris case, that the letter of
6 the law was followed in this case?
7 A Yeah, I assume that I said that.
8 Q Okay. Again, did you draw that
9 conclusion based on your briefing from Brannigan and
10 Zaborac on the 11th?
11 A On the 11th?
12 Q Yes.
13 A Yes.
14 Q Is that right?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Well, did all of this come --
17 MR. CROWE: I'll object now. Before you said
18 what Malone had said to him and what Malone had said
19 again and then what the sergeants had said and what
20 everybody else said at the briefing and then what he
21 knew about the quality of the officers involved. So
22 all of that --
23 MR. TAYLOR: No, I never said that.
24 MR. CROWE: -- formed a factual basis.
145
1 MR. TAYLOR: Well, wait a minute. You're just
2 giving him an answer.
3 MS. SUSLER: Yes. Nice testimony.
4 MR. TAYLOR: I never asked that, but you can
5 note your objection. That's fine.
6 MR. SHEEHAN: Wait one second.
7 (Whereupon there was an
8 off-the-record discussion held
9 between defendants' counsel.)
10 BY MR. TAYLOR:
11 Q Um, did you have -- I guess my
12 question is did you have a second conversation with
13 the news media, that one being on the 12th rather
14 than the 11th, or is this quote about they following
15 the letter of the law, was that given on the 11th and
16 just used on the 12th?
17 A That's a possibility, that it could
18 have been given on the 11th and used on the 12th, you
19 know --
20 Q Okay.
21 A -- because the 12th was -- I don't
22 know.
23 Q Now, I want to show you what I'm going
24 to mark as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 302 and -- well, first
146
1 let me show you 301. Let me mark this as 302. I'm
2 sorry.
3 (Exhibit marked and tendered to
4 witness.)
5 Now, this is a front-page article on
6 the 12th of August of the Chicago Tribune, "Fight
7 Looms Over Boys' Confessions." Did you see this
8 particular news article on or about the 12th of
9 August?
10 A I don't remember. More than likely I
11 did.
12 Q Okay. Let me mark this as 303, which
13 is the 13th of August.
14 (Exhibit marked and tendered to
15 witness.)
16 Again, this is a Thursday, the 13th of
17 August, Chicago Tribune article, front-page article.
18 Did you see this on or about the 13th?
19 A I probably saw it, yeah.
20 Q Okay. Now, did you feel, given your
21 experience as a police officer, that it would have
22 taken a certain kind of child to be that young and to
23 have committed the kind of murder that the Ryan
24 Harris case was or --
147
1 MS. ROSEN: Objection.
2 BY MR. TAYLOR:
3 Q -- did you have any opinion as to
4 that?
5 MS. ROSEN: Form, calls for speculation.
6 Foundation.
7 MR. CROWE: Join in the objection.
8 THE WITNESS: I can't answer that. I have no
9 opinion of it.
10 BY MR. TAYLOR:
11 Q Okay. Did the fact that it appeared
12 that these children had parents who loved them and
13 were concerned for them, did that have any impact on
14 you as to questioning whether, in fact, these
15 children could have committed the crime?
16 MR. CROWE: I'll object to --
17 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form --
18 MR. CROWE: -- the form of the question.
19 MS. ROSEN: -- calls for speculation.
20 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
21 BY MR. TAYLOR:
22 Q Okay. Now, I want to look again at
23 the August 12th article that you say you most likely
24 saw.
148
1 A Which exhibit is that?
2 Q That's 302, I believe.
3 MR. CROWE: August 12th, Chicago Tribune.
4 THE WITNESS: Okay.
5 BY MR. TAYLOR:
6 Q Now, looking at the last column of the
7 first page and the first column of the second page,
8 it has a quote. "'The question is simply whether the
9 individual understands that he is obligated to tell
10 the truth and can distinguish reality from fantasy,'
11 said Ronald Allen, a professor of criminal and
12 constitutional law at Northwestern University.
13 "Another question concerns whether a
14 confession from a juvenile is coerced or is otherwise
15 unreliable because the child is frightened or
16 confused by the police interrogation. 'Children can
17 be made to say virtually anything, including
18 fantasizing magical rituals, baby killing, black
19 magic,' Allen said. 'We've seen many cases in which
20 children fantasize the most astounding things that
21 never happened. There is tremendous concern about
22 children's vulnerability to suggestion, and we've
23 found that suggestion can occur in very, very subtle
24 ways.'"
149
1 Do you remember that particular quote
2 or seeing it at the time you saw this newspaper?
3 A I remember that -- I don't remember
4 that particular quote, you know. I'm quite sure that
5 if -- that I have read these news clips, but as far
6 as remembering, per se, I can't say that.
7 MR. TAYLOR: Then looking at the -- do I have
8 a 304 yet?
9 MS. REPORTER: No.
10 MR. TAYLOR: Want to take another real short
11 break?
12 (Brief recess.)
13 (Exhibit marked and tendered to
14 witness.)
15 BY MR. TAYLOR:
16 Q Now, I've marked this is 304, which is
17 another front-page article of the Tribune, this one
18 Friday the 14th. I take it you also would have seen
19 this article around that time?
20 A I probably did, Mr. Taylor.
21 Q I want to call your attention to the
22 fourth paragraph on the front page, and it says, "One
23 expert says the seven-year-old, described by police
24 as the aggressor in the slaying and the one who
150
1 authorities say gave the most detailed statement
2 implicating himself and his friend in the crime, has
3 significant speech problems both in understanding and
4 in articulation. Dr. Louis Kraus also said the boy
5 was virtually nonverbal unless his mother was present
6 during the interview." Do you remember learning that
7 information?
8 A Yes.
9 Q I'm sorry?
10 A From the newspaper, yes.
11 Q Okay. Now, given the fact that the
12 statement by Allen in the article on the 12th about
13 children can be made to say anything, and also the
14 testimony here as recounted concerning the expert who
15 said that the seven-year-old was virtually nonverbal
16 unless his mother was present, did you at that point
17 do anything to further investigate the circumstances
18 of the statements that Zaborac and Brannigan had told
19 you these children had made?
20 MS. ROSEN: Object to foundation.
21 MR. CROWE: Yeah. I'll object to the form and
22 as to the foundation as to why these particular
23 articles should cause any kind of conduct
24 unprofessional on a police professional's part.
151
1 But you may answer the question.
2 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
3 BY MR. TAYLOR:
4 Q Did you make any effort to get any of
5 the reports or testimony from the juvenile court
6 to -- from the experts to determine whether, in fact,
7 these children could have made the statements that
8 the officers were saying they made?
9 A No, sir.
10 Q Okay. Did you have any concern
11 whatsoever with regard to the statements as a result
12 of any of the testimony in court or any of the
13 newspaper articles on any of the experts' statements
14 about little children in general, and particularly
15 these little children, with regard to giving
16 statements?
17 A No, sir.
18 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Compound, foundation.
19 Oh, now you're asking questions, too?
20 MS. SUSLER: I'm talking to my co-counsel, if
21 you don't mind.
22 MR. TAYLOR: It's okay. He answered.
23 MS. ROSEN: Well, I need to still make my
24 objection. So my objection is compound, foundation
152
1 as to what the testimony was and as to how it's been
2 recounted in the media.
3 MR. CROWE: And I will join in the objection
4 and move that the answer be stricken.
5 BY MR. TAYLOR:
6 Q Now, did you at any time -- other than
7 what you were reading in the newspapers, did you
8 receive any additional information from the time of
9 the briefing on the 11th up and until you learned
10 about the semen on the panties of Ryan Harris?
11 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form.
12 MR. CROWE: Join in the objection.
13 THE WITNESS: Can I answer?
14 MS. ROSEN: Yeah.
15 THE WITNESS: I think, as I remember, after
16 reading everything in the newspaper, you know, Malone
17 and I might have had a conversation about where we
18 were at, you know, how were we doing on the
19 investigation.
20 BY MR. TAYLOR:
21 Q All right. Did you at any time
22 question whether the arrest and the prosecution of
23 these children should go forward at any time after
24 the 11th of August and before the semen was found on
153
1 the panties?
2 A Well, the arrests had taken place and
3 the prosecution was up to the state's attorney. No,
4 sir.
5 Q Okay. So as the chief police officer
6 of the City of Chicago, you made no effort to speak
7 to the state's attorney as to stopping the
8 prosecutions or asking them to reconsider the
9 prosecutions that your officers had initiated; is
10 that right?
11 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the question
12 and --
13 MS. ROSEN: Object to form.
14 MR. CROWE: -- the verbal negative nature and
15 argumentative nature.
16 MS. ROSEN: Foundation, as to -- object to the
17 officers initiated the prosecution.
18 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
19 BY MR. TAYLOR:
20 Q Okay. Now, you say you had a
21 conversation with Malone sometime in August after
22 these newspaper articles --
23 A Um-hum.
24 Q -- is that right?
154
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q What was the substance of your
3 conversation with Malone?
4 A Just asked him how were we doing on
5 the case.
6 Q Did you have any -- did you ask him
7 any specific questions that these articles or that
8 anything -- other information that you had raised in
9 your mind concerning the propriety of the arrests or
10 the prosecution?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q What did Malone tell you when you
13 asked him how are we doing?
14 A From what I remember, Mike said we was
15 doing okay, you know, that our detectives were still
16 confident that we had the right individuals.
17 Q All right. Did he tell you why they
18 were confident?
19 A No.
20 Q Did you ask him why they were --
21 A No.
22 Q -- still confident?
23 A No, no.
24 Q Was this at one of the briefings in
155
1 August subsequent to --
2 A No, this was just with Malone and I.
3 Q And do you recall the circumstances of
4 it in terms of where it was and when it was?
5 A Well, most likely it was probably in
6 my office.
7 Q Was it -- how long after the briefing
8 that Zaborac and Brannigan attended was this
9 particular briefing?
10 A It was probably a week, week and a
11 half later, you know, as I remember.
12 Q And did you have any other
13 conversations with Malone in which you asked how
14 things were going other than this one and putting it
15 in a time frame between the 11th of August and the
16 time that you discovered that the -- or you were
17 informed that there were semen found on the panties?
18 A You know, I'm more than certain that
19 Malone would give me a little update every now and
20 then, you know, after I talked to him about asking
21 him how we were doing.
22 Q Did Malone at any time tell you that
23 the medical examiner's report said that the blow to
24 Ryan Harris' head which caused her death could not
156
1 have been caused by a thrown rock?
2 A I forget who told me that. I don't
3 know what specific person told me that, but later on
4 down the line I found that out.
5 Q Was it before or after the charges
6 were dropped against the children?
7 A It was after the charges were dropped.
8 Q Was it Lieutenant Cornfield who told
9 you that?
10 A I said I don't know. I forget who the
11 specific person was who told me.
12 Q But you don't remember -- strike that.
13 You were not told that in the briefing
14 on the 11th; is that right, by Zaborac or Brannigan
15 or anyone else?
16 A No, sir, not that I remember.
17 Q Was that a significant piece of
18 evidence in your mind when you were told that?
19 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form, foundation.
20 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
21 question.
22 THE WITNESS: Can I ask you a question?
23 Significant how?
24 BY MR. TAYLOR:
157
1 Q Well, did it seem like it was an
2 important piece of evidence to know?
3 MR. CROWE: I'm objecting to the question
4 because charges had been dropped at that point.
5 MR. TAYLOR: Right. I know when he said he
6 learned it. Right.
7 MR. CROWE: Do you understand his question?
8 If you can, you can certainly answer it.
9 THE WITNESS: No, no, no. I need you to --
10 BY MR. TAYLOR:
11 Q Did it appear significant to you that
12 the medical examiner's findings at the time were
13 inconsistent with the statements of the boys with
14 regard to how the head injury was caused to Ryan
15 Harris?
16 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form, foundation as to
17 the fact that it was inconsistent.
18 THE WITNESS: I don't know if it was
19 significant. You know, it was brought to my
20 attention.
21 BY MR. TAYLOR:
22 Q Well, it was brought to your
23 attention?
24 A It was brought to my attention that
158
1 the rock didn't cause the death.
2 Q Okay. Wasn't that an important piece
3 of information?
4 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form, foundation.
5 Vague.
6 THE WITNESS: Important piece of information
7 concerning the death of Ryan Harris?
8 BY MR. TAYLOR:
9 Q Right.
10 A Yeah, I guess it was. Yes.
11 Q Did you ever make inquiry as to why
12 you weren't told that information when you were -- at
13 the briefing on the 11th by Zaborac and Brannigan?
14 A No.
15 Q Now, did you ever make any inquiry as
16 to why they didn't tell you that at any time?
17 A No, I didn't.
18 Q Now, did you learn either on the 10th
19 from Malone or on the 11th from Brannigan or Zaborac
20 that the children were being held in Hartgrove
21 Psychiatric Hospital, a children's psychiatric
22 hospital?
23 A You know, I don't know if that was
24 told to me on the 10th or the 11th. You know, I
159
1 remember somebody was saying that, you know, they
2 were going to try to get them into Hartgrove.
3 Q So did Malone tell you that on the
4 9th, on the evening of the 9th?
5 A No, it couldn't have been on the 9th.
6 The 9th was a Sunday. Am I correct?
7 BY MR. TAYLOR:
8 Q Um-hum.
9 A No, it might have been Monday.
10 Q Were you ever informed that -- did you
11 know that there had to be consent for them to be
12 placed in Hartgrove Hospital, consent of the parents?
13 MS. ROSEN: Objection.
14 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't know that.
15 BY MR. TAYLOR:
16 Q Did you ever learn that, in fact,
17 there was a misrepresentation made by the Youth
18 officers, or at least one Youth officer, in the case
19 to the parents that the children would be taken by
20 DCFS if they didn't consent to them being placed in
21 Hartgrove Hospital? Did you ever hear that?
22 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
23 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
24 question. Assumes facts not in evidence.
160
1 MR. TAYLOR: No, it's admitted.
2 MR. SHEEHAN: Where?
3 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
4 MR. TAYLOR: Bowen.
5 MS. ROSEN: It is not admitted.
6 MR. TAYLOR: Bowen and Bartek.
7 MS. ROSEN: It is not admitted.
8 MS. SUSLER: Let's not argue about it.
9 MS. ROSEN: Well, I don't want him to
10 represent to the superintendent that something is
11 admitted when it's not admitted.
12 MS. SUSLER: You made your objection.
13 THE WITNESS: I didn't know that, Mr. Taylor.
14 BY MR. TAYLOR:
15 Q If, in fact, a misrepresentation had
16 been made to obtain consent in this case, would that
17 be appropriate to be investigated internally?
18 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
19 question.
20 THE WITNESS: If that was the case?
21 BY MR. TAYLOR:
22 Q Yes.
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q Has any such investigation been made
161
1 at your behest?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q Do you know whether there has been
4 such an investigation?
5 A I don't know. This is the first time
6 that I'm hearing about this.
7 Q But that would be misconduct if that
8 were done, would it not --
9 MR. CROWE: Object to the form.
10 BY MR. TAYLOR:
11 Q -- if, in fact, it happened? If, in
12 fact, it happened, it would be misconduct, wouldn't
13 it?
14 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
15 question.
16 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't know if it would
17 be misconduct or it was a mistake or what. I don't
18 know. I mean, I would have to wait until we make an
19 investigation.
20 BY MR. TAYLOR:
21 Q If it were intentionally done rather
22 than a mistake, it would be misconduct; isn't that
23 right?
24 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
162
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
2 BY MR. TAYLOR:
3 Q Similarly, if, in fact, there were
4 misrepresentations made in police reports about the
5 circumstances of the questioning of these little
6 boys, that would be misconduct as well, wouldn't it?
7 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
8 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
9 question.
10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
11 BY MR. TAYLOR:
12 Q And have you -- at your behest has
13 there been any investigation into whether there were
14 any misrepresentations made by the detectives who
15 investigated this Ryan Harris case as to the
16 circumstances of the statements of the children in
17 this case?
18 MS. ROSEN: Object to foundation.
19 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
20 question.
21 THE WITNESS: Not at my behest.
22 BY MR. TAYLOR:
23 Q Do you know whether there has been?
24 A No.
163
1 Q Now, at some point in August of '98
2 did you have a meeting with Eugene Pincham and his
3 associate, Andre Grant, about this case?
4 A I had a meeting with Eugene Pincham.
5 Q Do you remember whether Andre Grant
6 was with him or not?
7 A As I remember, Andre Grant was not
8 with him.
9 Q Okay. Where was the meeting?
10 A It was held in the superintendent's
11 office at 1121 South State Street, room 400.
12 Q Okay. Was this sometime after the
13 briefing but before the semen was found?
14 A I don't know the exact time line. I
15 don't remember the exact time line, you know.
16 Q Do you remember whether it was before
17 the semen had been found on the body?
18 A I just said I don't know the exact
19 time line.
20 Q Okay. At whose request was this
21 meeting?
22 A As I remember, it was Judge Pincham's,
23 Eugene Pincham.
24 Q Did you know Judge Pincham prior to
164
1 this?
2 A Yes, I did.
3 Q Had you had dealings with him?
4 A When you say, "dealings," what --
5 Q Well, let me ask you this.
6 MR. CROWE: Thank you. I object to the form
7 of the question.
8 BY MR. TAYLOR:
9 Q Did you know of Mr. Pincham's
10 reputation within the legal community?
11 A Yeah, I knew of his reputation within
12 the legal community.
13 Q What was his reputation?
14 A That he was a former appellate court
15 judge, a former circuit judge, you know.
16 Q And did you have respect for
17 Mr. Pincham?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And when Mr. Pincham came, did he tell
20 you what the content of the meeting that he wanted to
21 have with you was?
22 A No. He called me and I spoke to him
23 and he asked if he could come down and talk to me.
24 Q All right. And you agreed?
165
1 A Yes.
2 Q And when he came down, what did he
3 talk to you about?
4 A Well, he came in and it started out
5 mostly about my blackness, that I'm a black man, I
6 was a black man before I was a police officer, before
7 I was the superintendent, and that I needed to step
8 up to the plate and do what was right.
9 And I told him not only am I a black
10 man, I'm a man. I'm a father, I'm a son, I'm a
11 brother, and I'm a police officer, and I have done
12 nothing wrong, and that I was -- I thought I was
13 leading this department in the best way that I knew
14 how.
15 He mentioned that these two little
16 babies had been wronged, and me being a black man, I
17 needed to step up to the plate and go forward and do
18 what needed to be done. We said a couple other
19 things.
20 Mr. Pincham gave me, as I remember, a
21 sealed envelope. I took it, I thanked him. He got
22 up and he left and that was it.
23 Q All right. So did he describe to you
24 in any detail how he said these little babies had
166
1 been wronged?
2 A No. You know, this was an open
3 investigation and at no time would I ever discuss an
4 open investigation with anybody.
5 Q He has stated that at the end of the
6 conversation he got up and you had tears in your
7 eyes. Is that an accurate representation by him?
8 A Well, I can truthfully say that I did
9 not have tears in my eyes, you know.
10 Q You can or you can't?
11 A I can. I can --
12 Q All right.
13 A -- as a 57-year-old black man, bar
14 anything else, say I did not have tears in my eyes,
15 you know.
16 Q Were you at all emotionally affected
17 by what Mr. Pincham had to say?
18 A Emotionally?
19 Q Um-hum.
20 A Uh, I listened to him. I listened to
21 him as the superintendent of the Chicago Police
22 Department.
23 Q Did he tell you what was in the
24 envelope that was sealed?
167
1 A No, sir.
2 Q Was it one of these manila envelopes,
3 a yellow envelope?
4 A It was, like, a -- those manila, those
5 kind of brown manila envelopes, you know, that was
6 sealed.
7 Q I thought I might have one here.
8 A Brown, white, one of them. You know,
9 one of the two.
10 Q Did you at some point review the
11 materials that he gave you?
12 A No, I didn't.
13 Q Why?
14 A Because I have a habit since I've been
15 superintendent that -- I'm given a number of sealed
16 envelopes and sealed containers and I never, never
17 open them.
18 They have confidential, secret,
19 personal, and I take it out and I give to a staff
20 member.
21 Q And who did you give this particular
22 envelope to?
23 A I went out and I don't remember if I
24 gave it to Commander Mahnke or I gave it to one of my
168
1 -- one of the secretaries out there.
2 Q Did they ever report back to you on
3 what the content of the envelope was?
4 A No.
5 Q Did Pincham tell you that it contained
6 police reports and other reports having to do with
7 this case?
8 A No, never.
9 Q So you -- he did not describe to you
10 what it was that he wanted you to look at beyond
11 saying, here, take this envelope?
12 A Yeah. Well, here's an envelope, you
13 need to look at it. And, like I said, I never review
14 any material that comes in a sealed envelope, sealed
15 containers, anything like that.
16 I take it and I give it to my staff
17 and they will forward it to the respective person who
18 needs to look at that, you know.
19 Q Did you have an occasion to request of
20 either Brannigan or Zaborac or Malone or anyone else
21 any of the reports in this case?
22 A I don't remember requesting any
23 reports, you know, right offhand. It's a possibility
24 that I saw some reports, you know. But as far as
169
1 requesting the reports from this case, I don't
2 remember. Maybe I did. I -- you know, I can't say.
3 Q All right. Did you ever see the crime
4 photos in the case?
5 A The crime photos from the crime scene?
6 Q Um-hum.
7 A No, sir.
8 Q Did you ever request to see them?
9 A No, sir.
10 Q Did you ever see the medical
11 examiner's report in this case?
12 A Not that I remember, no, sir.
13 Q Did you ever see the supplementary
14 report that the detectives who questioned the little
15 boys wrote in this case?
16 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
17 THE WITNESS: I can't say that I did, no.
18 BY MR. TAYLOR:
19 Q Now, after Pincham left, did you make
20 any effort to do anything to familiarize yourself
21 further with any aspects of the case in order to
22 determine whether Pincham was, in fact, right, that
23 these little babies had been wrongfully treated by
24 your department?
170
1 A Well, I think, as I remember, Malone
2 and I, we might have had a conversation, saying,
3 Mike, where are we with this, you know, with what's
4 happening in the newspapers and Judge Pincham coming
5 down. Where are we.
6 He said we were -- he said detectives
7 still stuck by their story, you know, stuck by what
8 they did was proper and correct and lawful.
9 Q Okay. Is this the same conversation
10 with Malone that you told us earlier or is this a
11 subsequent one?
12 A This was probably a different
13 conversation that I had with him, you know.
14 Q Did Pincham suggest to you any other
15 potential suspects in the case?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q Okay. Did you ever make any calls to
18 any -- to a Sergeant McMahon and ask him to check
19 into someone who might be a suspect in the case?
20 A Sergeant McMahon?
21 Q Right.
22 A No, sir.
23 Q You don't remember that?
24 A No, I don't remember that. No.
171
1 Q Okay. Let me show you what I'm going
2 to have marked as 305, I believe. This is another
3 front-page Chicago Tribune article, this one dated
4 later on in the month of August, Sunday, August 30th.
5 It's entitled, "How Cops Got Boys To Talk."
6 (Exhibit marked and tendered to
7 witness.)
8 Did you see that article around the
9 time that it came out, Sunday, the 30th of August?
10 A I probably did.
11 Q This particular article details
12 information in police reports, particularly the
13 police report that documented the questioning of the
14 little boys; isn't that right?
15 MS. ROSEN: Do you want him to read the
16 whole --
17 BY MR. TAYLOR:
18 Q Well, you can take a look at it and
19 see if you agree with that interpretation of mine.
20 A Yes, that's what it says.
21 Q Okay. Oh, by the way, let me go back
22 a moment to the meeting, the briefing on the 11th.
23 Did Zaborac or Brannigan tell you
24 whether they had at any point given any kind of
172
1 Miranda warnings to either of the children that were
2 being questioned?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Did you ask?
5 A No, sir.
6 Q Did anyone else ask?
7 A Not that I remember.
8 Q Did you have any concern at that time
9 that children of this young age might not understand
10 what Miranda warnings were?
11 A It --
12 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form, foundation.
13 THE WITNESS: It didn't -- just didn't
14 register to me.
15 BY MR. TAYLOR:
16 Q Okay. One way or the other?
17 A Yeah.
18 Q Okay. Now, in reading this article, I
19 want to call your attention to the bottom of the last
20 column.
21 A Which page are you on?
22 Q I'm on the second page of the exhibit.
23 A The middle column?
24 Q No, the second to the last column.
173
1 I'm sorry.
2 A Okay.
3 Q It says, "Police called Dr. Mitra
4 Kalelkar, who performed the autopsy on Ryan, and she
5 reported to them that a thrown rock would not have
6 caused the skull fracture the girl suffered." Do you
7 see that in the article?
8 A Um-hum.
9 Q Do you remember having read that
10 around the 30th of August?
11 A Maybe I did, you know. I can't be
12 positive, you know.
13 Q Would this be the first time that you
14 had heard about this aspect of the medical examiner's
15 report, that being that a thrown rock could not have
16 caused the injury to Ryan Harris' head?
17 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form, foundation.
18 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
19 question.
20 THE WITNESS: I have to ask a question. Was
21 this after the charges had been dropped against them?
22 BY MR. TAYLOR:
23 Q This is a few days before.
24 A A few days before.
174
1 MR. CROWE: What's the question? Did he see
2 that paragraph? Is that the question?
3 (Record read.)
4 THE WITNESS: I thought the first time that I
5 had heard about it was after the charges had been
6 dropped.
7 BY MR. TAYLOR:
8 Q Okay. Now, in this article it
9 indicates that -- let me see if I can find it quickly
10 here.
11 Did you learn from this article that
12 the -- when the seven-year-old gave his statements to
13 the police, that his grandmother was not present,
14 neither his mother nor his grandmother was present?
15 A No, I didn't learn that from this
16 article. I didn't know anything about it. I didn't
17 know if they was present or not.
18 Q Did you ever learn that the
19 grandparent or parents were not present when the
20 seven-year-old gave his statement or is the first
21 time you're learning that today when I'm mentioning
22 it?
23 A I thought they were, you know -- that
24 the grandparents was present.
175
1 Q By "present," I mean present in the
2 room when he was giving the statement, not present in
3 the building.
4 A From what I understand, they were
5 outside the room, sitting right outside the room with
6 the door open.
7 Q Did you understand that she was -- so
8 then you did understand that she wasn't in the room
9 where he was being questioned?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q You thought she was sitting outside
12 the room somewhere?
13 A I thought she was sitting right
14 outside the room.
15 Q By "right outside," you mean, like,
16 within a couple of feet or something?
17 A Yes.
18 Q So you didn't know that, in fact,
19 according to the police, she was sitting across the
20 office in another room?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q Okay. When I mentioned that to you
23 now is the first time you've heard that?
24 A That she was sitting across the room
176
1 in another room?
2 Q Right.
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Where did you learn the information
5 that she was sitting right outside the door where the
6 boy was being questioned?
7 A I think that was told to me probably
8 by either Malone or the chief of detectives.
9 Q Okay. Was this before or after semen
10 was found on the panties?
11 A I believe it was after the semen was
12 found. That's when I got really a rundown.
13 Q Now, did you on or about the 3rd of
14 September receive information from Malone that the
15 crime lab, the Illinois state crime lab, had found
16 semen on the panties of Ryan Harris?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And was it Malone that told you that?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And was it at a briefing or did he
21 come, just come to your office and tell you?
22 A As I remember, he came to the office
23 and told me.
24 Q Was that because it was a very
177
1 significant piece of evidence?
2 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Calls for speculation.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
4 BY MR. TAYLOR:
5 Q Okay. Did you at that point -- you
6 had mentioned earlier that you had had some
7 information that there was some -- I think you said
8 at the briefing that there was some testing being
9 done. Is that the way you said it?
10 A Analysis.
11 Q At the crime lab, right?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q But at that point they didn't tell you
14 that the analysis that was being done or waiting to
15 be done was the testing of the panties, did they?
16 A They didn't tell me what material was
17 being tested.
18 Q Was Malone upset by this information?
19 A I don't know if he was upset. He came
20 and reported what he had found, you know. As far as
21 being upset, you know, you would have to ask him
22 that.
23 Q When you got this information, what
24 did you do with it? Well, what did you do? I
178
1 shouldn't say "with it." What did you do?
2 A I asked him what does this mean.
3 Q And what did he say?
4 A He said that there's a great
5 possibility that young boys of this age could not
6 deposit -- what is it -- semen or sperm or whatever
7 it is.
8 Q Um-hum.
9 A You know, and that he was going to
10 have me call the state's attorney and inform the
11 state's attorney and hold a meeting.
12 Q I didn't hear the last thing.
13 A They would have to hold a meeting.
14 Q Hold a meeting to determine whether to
15 drop the charges against the children?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And did you and Malone discuss whether
18 you thought it would be appropriate for the charges
19 to be dropped at that time against the children?
20 A That was up to him, whoever he
21 designated to go to the state's attorney's office and
22 talk to the assistant state's attorney.
23 Q Okay. Did you and he discuss what
24 your view or position was with regard to whether the
179
1 case should be dropped based on this significant new
2 information?
3 MS. ROSEN: Objection.
4 THE WITNESS: No, we had to wait for the
5 state's attorney.
6 BY MR. TAYLOR:
7 Q Well, did you have a recommendation to
8 the state's attorney as to whether the case should be
9 dropped or not?
10 A No. We waited for the state's
11 attorney to give us some information, some advice on
12 what needed to be done.
13 Q So, in other words, you didn't have a
14 position as to whether the charges should be dropped
15 based on this new evidence?
16 A That's the state's attorney's job.
17 Q Not yours.
18 A Right.
19 Q All right. Did you have a personal
20 opinion as to whether the charges should be dropped
21 at that time or not?
22 MR. CROWE: Object to the form --
23 THE WITNESS: No.
24 MR. CROWE: -- of the question.
180
1 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
2 BY MR. TAYLOR:
3 Q So you had no feeling one way or the
4 other as to whether the arrest and prosecution of the
5 children should continue or should be terminated; is
6 that right?
7 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
8 question.
9 THE WITNESS: That needed to be left up to the
10 prosecutors, to the state's attorney.
11 BY MR. TAYLOR:
12 Q Did you attend the meeting with the
13 prosecutors?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q Do you know who did?
16 A No, no.
17 Q Either Malone or someone he designated
18 from the police department attended the meeting?
19 A From the -- probably from the
20 Detective Division. Right.
21 Q Okay. And when was that meeting held?
22 Was it held the same day that you received the
23 information about the semen?
24 MR. CROWE: I'm going to object to the
181
1 question. There is no way to show that he knew when
2 the meeting was held.
3 THE WITNESS: You know, I don't know when it
4 was held, but I know, you know, that they held a
5 meeting and it was determined that the charges were
6 going to be dropped.
7 BY MR. TAYLOR:
8 Q Did someone inform you that the
9 decision had been made that the charges would be
10 dropped?
11 A Malone informed me.
12 Q Did he inform you the same day that he
13 informed you that semen had been found on the
14 panties?
15 A I don't remember the time line, you
16 know. I don't know if we got that information early
17 in the morning or late in the afternoon, you know, so
18 I couldn't say. But he did inform me, you know.
19 Q Okay. As a result of the information
20 that you received that the charges were going to be
21 dismissed, did you prepare a press release or have a
22 press release prepared for your reading?
23 A As I remember, the press office did
24 prepare a press release.
182
1 Q And do you know what position the
2 police department either through Malone or someone
3 from Area 2 -- Area 1 -- took at the meeting with the
4 state's attorney as to whether the charges should be
5 dropped?
6 A Well, I would assume that they took
7 the same stance that the state's attorney did.
8 Q That they should have been dropped?
9 A Yeah, I would assume that.
10 Q Did you know that?
11 A Well, I don't know that.
12 Q Would that have been your position?
13 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Asked and answered.
14 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
15 question.
16 THE WITNESS: That's -- you go by what your
17 lawyers tell you. If the prosecutor said the charges
18 need to be dropped, then you go with it.
19 BY MR. TAYLOR:
20 Q Prior to learning that the semen had
21 been found on the panties, at any time had you had
22 any communication with the state's attorney's office
23 with regard to this case?
24 A Not to my recollection, no.
183
1 Q Had you spoken with State's Attorney
2 Devine at any time from the time that the children
3 were arrested up and until the time that the semen
4 was found on the panties?
5 A Not to my recollection.
6 Q Okay. Do you know whether Deputy
7 Superintendent Malone spoke with either Devine or one
8 of his top assistants?
9 A I couldn't answer that for Deputy
10 Malone.
11 Q Do you know Assistant State's Attorney
12 Erickson?
13 A David Erickson?
14 Q Yes.
15 A Yes.
16 Q Did you have any communication with
17 Erickson at any time from the time the children were
18 arrested in this case until the semen was found on
19 the panties?
20 A Not to my recollection.
21 Q And do you know Cathy Ryan?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And did you have any communication
24 with Cathy Ryan about this case and specifically
184
1 whether the charges should be dropped against these
2 children?
3 A Did I?
4 Q Yes.
5 A No, not to my recollection.
6 Q Was her opinion or position with
7 regard to whether these charges should be dropped or
8 not ever communicated to you?
9 A No.
10 Q Now, the state's attorney did decide
11 to drop the charges and they were dropped the next
12 day; is that right?
13 A If that's the time line.
14 Q Okay. Well, sometime very soon after
15 the discovery the charges were dropped against the
16 little boys, were they not?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And you say that you -- that a news
19 release was issued over your name; is that right?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 MR. TAYLOR: Okay. Let's mark this as 306, I
22 believe; is that right?
23 MS. REPORTER: Yes.
24 (Exhibit marked and tendered to
185
1 witness.)
2 BY MR. TAYLOR:
3 Q Calling your attention to Plaintiffs'
4 Exhibit 306, does this appear to be a press release
5 dated the 4th of September of 1998 in which it is a
6 statement of yourself concerning the Ryan Harris
7 case?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Did you hold a press conference either
10 on behalf of the police department or together with
11 the state's attorney's office on the 4th of September
12 concerning a dismissal of the Ryan Harris charges?
13 A I don't know if this is the one from
14 when I came downstairs right after this was -- a
15 statement that I read, or this is one from the --
16 with the state's attorney.
17 MR. CROWE: The date.
18 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm looking at the date.
19 BY MR. TAYLOR:
20 Q Okay. But this is a statement that
21 you read; is that right?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q Is it a statement that you -- that you
24 wrote?
186
1 A No, sir.
2 Q Someone wrote it for you?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Who wrote it for you?
5 A Uh, the press office.
6 Q Camden?
7 A Probably Camden or one of his people
8 back there in the press office.
9 Q Okay. But it did articulate your
10 position with regard to the recent developments in
11 the Ryan Harris case; is that right?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q And did you discuss the content of the
14 statement before he wrote it with him?
15 A Well, not necessarily so. They write
16 it and I read it.
17 Q You read it. And if you agree with it
18 when you read it --
19 A Yeah, yeah.
20 Q -- you give it publicly, and --
21 A Yeah.
22 Q -- if not, you make any changes that
23 you feel appropriate; is that right?
24 A Yes, sir.
187
1 Q Now, in the second paragraph you state
2 in this statement that you understood that children
3 of the ages of the suspects, meaning the little boys
4 in this case, would be incapable of being the source
5 of the semen; is that right?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Was that the information that Malone
8 had passed on to you?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q And you then say that this case has
11 been extraordinary from its inception; is that right?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q And, I take it, you were referring
14 there to the ages of the children, the notoriety that
15 it was getting in the community and around the world,
16 and the age of the victim and all those kinds of
17 things. Is that what made it an extraordinary case?
18 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
20 BY MR. TAYLOR:
21 Q Is there anything else that I omitted
22 that went into the fact that it was an extraordinary
23 case from its inception?
24 MR. CROWE: Well, I'll object to the form of
188
1 the question as it was a statement made back in
2 September 4th of '98.
3 There could have been a lot of things
4 that went into it other than what you said, even
5 though what you said is pretty good things to make it
6 extraordinary.
7 THE WITNESS: That's it.
8 BY MR. TAYLOR:
9 Q Anything else?
10 A No, sir.
11 Q Okay. And then you say that it
12 remains a tragedy within a tragedy. Is one of the
13 tragedies the senseless killing of a young girl? Is
14 that one of tragedies that's referred to --
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q -- in this statement? And is the
17 other tragedy the fact that these little boys were
18 arrested for it?
19 A Well, the other tragedy is that the
20 pain and grief that that community had gone through,
21 that these two young boys who had knowledge of
22 something that happened, you know, around Ryan
23 Harris' demise, and it's a tragedy that two young
24 boys like this are being involved with something like
189
1 this.
2 Q Okay. So you were still at this point
3 articulating that you felt that these boys were
4 involved in the murder of Ryan Harris?
5 A They had, uh, certain information that
6 we were not privy to.
7 Q So are you saying that you still felt
8 that they were involved in the murder of Ryan Harris
9 or that they had information about the murder of Ryan
10 Harris?
11 A Well, there was certain facts that
12 they had of only somebody who was intimately
13 involved, you know, in the death of Ryan Harris.
14 Q Well, the police also had those facts,
15 didn't they?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q And the media had those facts, too,
18 didn't they?
19 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
20 MR. CROWE: Object to "the media."
21 THE WITNESS: I don't know what the media had.
22 BY MR. TAYLOR:
23 Q But I want to be precise now. Were
24 you saying that the fact that these children,
190
1 according to the police, had information that only
2 they and people who were intimately involved with the
3 case would have known, that led you to conclude that
4 the children were involved in the murder; in other
5 words --
6 MR. CROWE: Objection.
7 BY MR. TAYLOR:
8 Q -- participated in the murder, or
9 simply that they were witnesses --
10 MR. CROWE: Object to the form.
11 BY MR. TAYLOR:
12 Q -- to the murder?
13 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the question
14 as asked and answered.
15 THE WITNESS: And the only thing that I can
16 relate to you is what was told to me, that they had
17 certain facts pertaining to this incident, you know.
18 BY MR. TAYLOR:
19 Q Was it related to you that the facts
20 that they had could have been obtained by someone who
21 saw the body?
22 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
23 MR. CROWE: Join in the objection.
24 THE WITNESS: It's possible.
191
1 BY MR. TAYLOR:
2 Q So it wasn't -- so there were more
3 alternatives other than just that the children were
4 intimately involved in some way in the murder in
5 order to have this information, right?
6 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
7 question.
8 THE WITNESS: Say that again now.
9 BY MR. TAYLOR:
10 Q Well, the children could have gotten
11 this information from questions asked to them by the
12 police, couldn't they?
13 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
14 MR. CROWE: Join in that objection, and object
15 to the form of the question.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
17 BY MR. TAYLOR:
18 Q And they also could have gotten this
19 information from persons who had seen the body before
20 the police came and recounted it to them. That's
21 another way; isn't that right?
22 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
23 MR. CROWE: Join in that objection.
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
192
1 BY MR. TAYLOR:
2 Q And they could have gotten the
3 information from having witnessed part of the crime;
4 is that right?
5 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
7 BY MR. TAYLOR:
8 Q And they also could have gotten the
9 information by themselves having seen the body at
10 some point after the girl had been killed; isn't that
11 right?
12 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
14 BY MR. TAYLOR:
15 Q Now, were these all possibilities that
16 you considered when you made your statement about the
17 children?
18 MR. CROWE: Object to that question because it
19 certainly doesn't exclude all other possibilities.
20 THE WITNESS: Would you repeat that last one
21 for me, ma'am?
22 (Record read.)
23 I don't know if, uh, all those were
24 considered when we made the statement.
193
1 BY MR. TAYLOR:
2 Q Okay. Now, on the second page of this
3 statement it says, "Allegations of misconduct on the
4 part of the detectives have been made. There has
5 been no -- I repeat -- no misconduct," in bold, "on
6 the part of any member of the Chicago Police
7 Department, nor would I condone any such actions
8 concerning this or any other case."
9 Now, you read that particular
10 statement; is that right?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And that was broadcast widely in the
13 news media, right?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q On what did you base your conclusion
16 that no misconduct had been -- there had been no
17 misconduct on the part of any member of the Chicago
18 Police Department?
19 A No allegations of misconduct was
20 brought to me by anybody about these detectives.
21 Q Well, Mr. Pincham had brought you some
22 allegations, hadn't he?
23 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
24 MR. CROWE: Join in that objection.
194
1 THE WITNESS: I'm telling you the conversation
2 I had with Mr. Pincham --
3 BY MR. TAYLOR:
4 Q Right.
5 A -- and Mr. Pincham did not bring me
6 allegations.
7 Q Well, he told you -- he gave some
8 evidence he said supported the fact that your
9 officers had treated these babies wrong; isn't that
10 right?
11 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
12 THE WITNESS: Mr. Pincham gave me an envelope,
13 a sealed envelope, which I have no idea what was in
14 it.
15 You said there was police reports.
16 Police reports are reviewed and audited by the
17 commanding officer and by the supervisor. If there
18 had been misconduct, it was incumbent upon the
19 sergeant, the lieutenant, or the commander, those
20 deputy chiefs, to initiate a complaint register
21 number.
22 BY MR. TAYLOR:
23 Q Well, at the time that Malone came and
24 told you about the semen being found on the panties,
195
1 did you have any discussion about why this took the
2 period of time it took to come to make this finding?
3 In other words, we're now almost six
4 weeks from the finding of the body before the semen
5 is found. Did you have any discussion with him about
6 that?
7 A Mr. Taylor, I don't think I need to
8 ask Deputy Superintendent Malone that. We should ask
9 the forensic lab from the Illinois state police
10 because they are the ones who analyze and do those
11 tests, not the police department. We don't have a
12 lab. That's the Illinois state police lab.
13 Q But shouldn't you have also looked
14 into what, if any, role the police department had in
15 the failure of that testing?
16 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form, foundation as to
17 a failure to do any testing. The testing was
18 complete.
19 MR. CROWE: Object to -- join in that
20 objection.
21 BY MR. TAYLOR:
22 Q A failure to do it in a more timely
23 fashion.
24 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form, foundation.
196
1 There's nothing in the record to indicate that it
2 wasn't done in a timely fashion.
3 MR. CROWE: Join in that objection.
4 THE WITNESS: You know, as I said before, the
5 police department does no testing on -- when it come
6 down to things such as this. That goes to the
7 forensic lab, over to the Illinois state police, and
8 it's incumbent upon them to answer that question.
9 BY MR. TAYLOR:
10 Q Well, you were familiar with the fact
11 that the police department was the one who would
12 gather the evidence; isn't that right?
13 A Um-hum.
14 Q Yes?
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q And they would be the ones who would
17 also make the evidence available to the crime lab,
18 right?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And they would also then make requests
21 of the crime lab in terms of what tests should be
22 done --
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q -- isn't that right?
197
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And they also could make requests to
3 have certain evidence tested in a more expedited
4 manner; in other words, ask for rush testing on
5 certain evidence; isn't that right?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q So those were -- and they also could
8 make an inquiry if, in fact, testing was not being
9 done in a timely manner to request of the persons who
10 were doing the testing to do that testing in a more
11 timely manner, couldn't they?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q Now, did you make any inquiry to find
14 out whether the police department had done any of
15 those things with regard to the panties?
16 A Did I make any inquiries? No, sir.
17 Q Did you cause any investigation,
18 internal investigation, to be done to find out what,
19 if any, role the police department had in the fact
20 that the finding of semen on the panties was six
21 weeks after the killing of Ryan Harris?
22 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
23 THE WITNESS: From what I understand is that
24 this went through the process, "this" being -- and
198
1 you said it earlier, a heater case, a high-profile
2 case. Those cases, the majority of the time, take
3 precedence over other cases, and that analysis went
4 forward.
5 Now, how long it takes them to analyze
6 and evaluate evidence over at the Illinois state
7 police crime lab, I have no idea.
8 BY MR. TAYLOR:
9 Q Now, in making your statement that
10 there no misconduct on the part of any member of the
11 Chicago Police Department, that there was none, had
12 you at that time seen any reports that indicated how
13 the questioning took place?
14 A Had I seen --
15 Q Yes. Had you seen the supplementary
16 report, any of the GPRs, any of the evidence,
17 documentary evidence, in the case with regard to the
18 questioning of the children?
19 A I don't know if that would be in a GPR
20 or a supplementary, no.
21 Q But you hadn't seen them in any
22 regard, had you?
23 A No.
24 Q And had you talked to any of the
199
1 detectives or seen any investigation with regard to
2 whether -- the circumstances of the questioning of
3 the children?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q For instance, did you know at that
6 time whether the grandmother had not been permitted
7 to be present in the room when the child was
8 questioned?
9 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
10 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
11 question.
12 THE WITNESS: I think you informed me of that
13 about 30 minutes ago.
14 BY MR. TAYLOR:
15 Q So what, if any, investigation did you
16 do prior to making the statement that you did on the
17 4th of September that no misconduct on the part of
18 any member of the Chicago Police Department had
19 occurred?
20 A I did no investigation. Those
21 sergeants, lieutenants, and the commander and deputy
22 chief, chief of detectives, and deputy superintendent
23 of the Bureau of Investigative Services, that was
24 incumbent upon them.
200
1 If they found there had been
2 misconduct, they would have informed me. I was not
3 informed that there was any misconduct.
4 Q Was there, to your knowledge, any
5 internal investigation by the IAD that was underway
6 with regard to any of the actions of the police or
7 the police department in this case?
8 A I'm not aware of it. It's a
9 possibility that an internal investigation could have
10 been initiated, but I don't get informed of all the
11 complaint register numbers that's initiated in the
12 Chicago Police Department.
13 Q Did you make any attempt to find out
14 in this very extraordinary case whether there had
15 been any investigation, internal investigation, about
16 any misconduct before making the statement that there
17 was none?
18 MR. CROWE: Object to the form.
19 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form.
20 THE WITNESS: No, because I would like to
21 reiterate that I don't micromanage. This is a
22 department of 13,500 police officers, you know, and
23 for me to micromanage -- doing my job is hard enough.
24 To try and do all of those folks' jobs
201
1 who are subordinate to me, who come under me, you
2 know, it would be impossible. That's the reason that
3 I give them the jobs and they are supposed to do it.
4 BY MR. TAYLOR:
5 Q Okay. Did you within a day or two of
6 issuing this statement go to Area 1 and request a
7 meeting with the detectives who had taken the
8 statements from the children?
9 A No. I went to Area 1 not to meet the
10 detectives who had taken the statements from the
11 children, but I went to talk to all the detectives in
12 Area 1.
13 Q And?
14 A And to tell them that they still had
15 my support, that I thought they were one hell of a
16 group of detectives. And I not only do this -- I did
17 that for those detectives.
18 I go around the city and talk to our
19 police officers and tell them what I think about
20 them, how I think they're doing, you know, and that
21 you cannot really let what's being said in the media
22 really get you down. You got to continue to do your
23 job, continue to do your mission, carry out your
24 mission and your task.
202
1 So by me going out and talking to
2 those detectives, that was something that I do on a
3 regular basis since I've been superintendent of
4 police.
5 Q But you did it, talked to them, in
6 light of the dismissal of the case that they had
7 brought and the arrests that they had made in this
8 case; isn't that right?
9 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form.
10 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
11 question.
12 THE WITNESS: No, I did it to go out there and
13 tell them you still got the support of the Chicago
14 Police Department and the superintendent of the
15 Chicago Police Department.
16 When you make a -- you just have to
17 understand that's my makeup. That's the way I
18 operate, going out and talking to these detectives
19 and police officers on a regular basis. I do that.
20 This wasn't in light of this case being dropped
21 against the two boys. I would have done it anyway.
22 BY MR. TAYLOR:
23 Q But you went the next day after the
24 case was dropped, wasn't it?
203
1 A I assume it was.
2 Q Okay. And Brannigan and Zaborac were
3 at the meeting, right?
4 A I believe they were.
5 Q And the detectives who took the
6 statements from the children were also there, weren't
7 they?
8 A I think it were probably a good 13 or
9 14 detectives at the meeting.
10 Q And you had requested that the
11 detectives who had been involved in the Ryan Harris
12 investigation and the arrest of the children be there
13 so you could speak to them, hadn't you?
14 A I requested all the detectives in Area
15 1 who had worked on this case to be there so I could
16 come and talk to them.
17 Q And you wanted to then commend them
18 for their work on the case, didn't you?
19 A Yes, I did.
20 Q And when you had them all in the room,
21 you didn't ask them any questions about any of the
22 details of the investigation, did you?
23 A No, sir.
24 Q Specifically, you didn't ask the ones
204
1 who took the statements any details about whether the
2 methods they used in taking the statements were
3 appropriate or not, did you?
4 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
5 question.
6 THE WITNESS: No, sir.
7 BY MR. TAYLOR:
8 Q And you didn't ask them anything about
9 the semen evidence and why -- what the circumstances
10 were of getting the semen evidence to the crime lab,
11 did you?
12 A No, sir.
13 Q Could you tell me exactly what you
14 said to them.
15 A Well, the best of my recollection, I
16 said what I normally say to our police officers, you
17 know, that they do a very stressful, very dangerous
18 job.
19 A lot of time their job goes -- it's
20 not rewarding and people -- they don't get enough
21 thanks for it, that they should be proud to be
22 Chicago police officers, and that with all the
23 criticism and all the hits, negative hits, that we
24 take from the news media, whether it be print, radio,
205
1 or TV, that they have a task, they have a sworn oath
2 that they must uphold, you know, and you got to
3 continue to do your job.
4 Do your job, be professional, be fair,
5 and be constitutional and right, you know, and try
6 and treat people with dignity and with respect.
7 Q Now, after the charges were dropped --
8 let's look again at the plaintiffs' exhibit that has
9 the statements.
10 A Which --
11 Q I forget what the number is on it, but
12 it has to do with the TV statements.
13 A 301?
14 Q 301. Thank you. I want to look now
15 at statements that are attributed to you on the 4th
16 of September.
17 It says -- it has you saying that --
18 this is WMAQ on page 1. "We have to go where the
19 facts take you. The facts took us to these young
20 boys and it still does. What is to say that they are
21 wrong?" Did you make that statement?
22 A I guess I did.
23 Q Okay. Then it says that Hillard
24 continues, "Well, you know, there is semen in the
206
1 underwear, but that does not mean that these two
2 young men were not involved." Did you make that
3 statement as well?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Getting back to what you meant here by
6 "involved," did you mean that they were -- that you
7 were saying that they still were -- you still felt
8 they were involved in the murder itself?
9 A Well, going back to what my two
10 sergeants tell us, that the facts that these young
11 boys knew pertaining to this incident, that they had
12 to know something other than, uh -- because they were
13 around the body, around Ryan Harris, when she was
14 killed or after she was killed. They had to know
15 something.
16 Q Okay. But what I'm asking you is are
17 you saying that they were -- there's a difference
18 between being a witness to something and being
19 involved in the commission of a crime; isn't that
20 right?
21 A That's true.
22 Q All right. You and I could be sitting
23 here and Mr. Sheehan could kill Ms. Rosen and we
24 might know things that others might not know about
207
1 that, but we wouldn't be involved in that crime,
2 would we?
3 A That's true.
4 Q So what I'm asking you is when you
5 used this term that these young men were -- meaning
6 these kids, you still thought they were involved, did
7 you mean it still meant they were involved in the
8 actual murder or that they knew things?
9 Were you simply trying to say that
10 they may have known things about the murder and were
11 witnesses to the murder or witnesses to the body
12 after the murder? Do you --
13 MS. ROSEN: Objection.
14 BY MR. TAYLOR:
15 Q -- understand what I'm asking you?
16 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form.
17 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I understand.
18 BY MR. TAYLOR:
19 Q Which would it be?
20 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form.
21 MR. CROWE: I object to form, too, that it had
22 to be one or the other.
23 THE WITNESS: At this particular time I wish I
24 could say. You know, I just don't remember at this
208
1 particular time.
2 BY MR. TAYLOR:
3 Q All right. But you would agree with
4 me there's quite a bit of difference in saying that
5 someone is involved in a murder and saying someone is
6 a witness to a murder; isn't that right?
7 A Yes.
8 Q But you can't tell me which you meant?
9 As you sit here now, you can't tell me which you
10 meant?
11 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form, asked and
12 answered.
13 THE WITNESS: Not at this particular time, no,
14 sir.
15 BY MR. TAYLOR:
16 Q Now, the next page has a quote from
17 the 9th of September at 4:30 p.m., which is, again,
18 from WMAQ, and it says, "Commentator: 'Last week
19 Terry Hillard said that the evidence still leads to
20 the two young boys. This week he's saying nothing.
21 Reporters caught up with Hillard when he was locked
22 out of his car.'"
23 There is a quote from you, "When I get
24 something, I'll give it to you, you know. I don't
209
1 have anything right now." Do you remember that
2 particular report?
3 A Yeah, vaguely. Yes.
4 Q Okay. And, again, they're saying here
5 that you said that the evidence still leads to the
6 two young boys. Now, that's based on your statement
7 on the 4th, right?
8 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form --
9 MR. CROWE: I'll object to --
10 MS. ROSEN: -- foundation. Calls for
11 speculation as to what the commentator meant.
12 MR. CROWE: Plus, this is the commentator
13 saying that.
14 BY MR. TAYLOR:
15 Q Was it your view even after the case
16 was dismissed against the kids that the evidence
17 still led to them?
18 A Well, it was our view, the Chicago
19 Police Department's view, that these two young boys
20 still had intimate knowledge on what happened to Ryan
21 Harris.
22 Q So, again, we're at the point of
23 whether it was witness knowledge or participant
24 knowledge, right?
210
1 A And that's something that --
2 Q You don't know at this point?
3 A Don't know. Yeah.
4 Q So did you consider the boys to still
5 be suspects in the case after the case was dismissed
6 against them?
7 A Well, whether I considered it, it was
8 up to the Detective Division to consider it, and they
9 was the ones that was investigating it.
10 Q Did you understand them to consider
11 the children to still be suspects or to be possible
12 witness or what?
13 A Well, uh, I guess with the semen there
14 was no longer -- they were no longer suspects.
15 Q So the Detective Division considered
16 them to be potential witnesses at that point, not
17 suspects; is that right?
18 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of that
19 question.
20 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form.
21 MR. CROWE: He doesn't know.
22 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
23 BY MR. TAYLOR:
24 Q Well, did you ever find out from them?
211
1 A No, I didn't.
2 Q Now, did you at some point just
3 subsequent to the dismissal of the case have an
4 occasion to make a request of Sergeant Ridges to
5 obtain the file in the Ryan Harris case?
6 A As I remember, I asked, uh -- I asked
7 either Ivanjack or Malone to ask Ridges to look at
8 it.
9 Q Did Ridges get you certain parts of
10 the file?
11 A He didn't get me -- I don't remember
12 him getting me certain parts of the file. I think I
13 asked him to look at it.
14 Q You asked who to look at it?
15 A Sergeant Ridges.
16 Q So you asked Ridges to look at it for
17 you?
18 A Yes.
19 Q So he didn't then get you the file
20 himself. He looked at it for you; is that right?
21 A That's how I remember it, you know.
22 Q What did you ask him to look at the
23 file for?
24 A Well, Jack Ridges, when it came down
212
1 to serial killers and when it came down to
2 investigating patterns of homicides, he's a very good
3 homicide detective, and he had a very small, very
4 capable, competent group down in the chief of
5 detectives' headquarters that was very good. Let a
6 fresh set of eyes look at it.
7 Q So you were asking Ridges to look at
8 it to see if there were any patterns that it would
9 fit into in terms of homicides and sexual assaults
10 and --
11 A No, I just asked him to look at the
12 file, him and his folks to look at it, you know. I
13 think that was through Malone or through Ivanjack
14 that we asked him to do that.
15 Q And did he do that for you?
16 A I believe he did.
17 Q And what did he -- did you get any
18 report back on --
19 A No.
20 Q -- what his investigation led to?
21 A No, no.
22 Q Was it about this time that you
23 started to learn that there was a suspect in the case
24 by the name of Floyd Durr?
213
1 A Probably not too long after that.
2 Q And who informed you of that?
3 A More than likely it would probably
4 have been Malone, maybe Ivanjack. One of the two.
5 Q Were you informed that there was a
6 task force looking into the -- investigating to find
7 out who committed the crime after the case was
8 dismissed against the children?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Were you also informed they had
11 arrived at Durr through DNA testing and admissions
12 that he had made, among other things?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q Did you also learn that there was
15 evidence in the case that witnesses had seen him with
16 Ryan Harris in the evening hours just prior to --
17 well, in the evening hours of the 27th, the day she
18 disappeared?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And did you learn that at least one of
21 those witnesses had picked Durr out of a lineup?
22 A Picked her out of a lineup?
23 Q Picked Durr out of a lineup. I'm
24 sorry. Floyd Durr.
214
1 A I believe that was brought to my
2 attention.
3 Q And was it also brought to your
4 attention that Durr's DNA connected him to a series
5 of previous sexual assaults and physical assaults of
6 young girls in the Englewood area?
7 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
9 BY MR. TAYLOR:
10 Q And did you at any point have an
11 occasion to determine why Durr had not been
12 previously identified as a suspect in the Ryan Harris
13 case? Have you ever had occasion to do any
14 investigation in that regard?
15 A Well, I didn't do an investigation.
16 But from what I was told, that he was not a convicted
17 sex offender and his DNA was not in the data, in the
18 state's database.
19 Q Do you know whether any patterns were
20 developed with regard to Durr's crimes prior to the
21 murder of Ryan Harris?
22 A No, I don't know that specifically.
23 Q Did you know that, in fact, Durr had
24 been connected to a pattern of assaults against young
215
1 girls in Englewood prior to the murder of Ryan
2 Harris?
3 A I don't --
4 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
5 THE WITNESS: I don't know that for a fact
6 either.
7 BY MR. TAYLOR:
8 Q Have you ever heard that? Have you
9 seen that in the paper?
10 A No.
11 Q Did you sometime in November of '98
12 have an occasion to meet with the state's attorney
13 about charging Floyd Durr with the Ryan Harris
14 murder?
15 A I remember that, yes, sir.
16 Q Was that after the task force had
17 informed you with information which led you to
18 conclude that Durr had, in fact, committed the murder
19 and sexual assault of Ryan Harris?
20 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
21 question.
22 MS. ROSEN: Foundation.
23 MR. CROWE: And foundation.
24 THE WITNESS: No, I think they stated that the
216
1 semen found on the panties was his DNA.
2 BY MR. TAYLOR:
3 Q But you've also stated that you were
4 informed about other evidence that implicated him in
5 the murder of Ryan Harris; is that right?
6 A With the semen, yes.
7 Q I'm saying over and above the semen.
8 A Like what?
9 Q Like the witnesses who saw him with
10 Ryan Harris, the statement that he made, the -- the
11 other things we mentioned; the pattern of similar
12 crimes that he was implicated in, among other things.
13 A Yes, sir.
14 MR. CROWE: Well, I have to object to that.
15 That's all he was informed of.
16 MR. TAYLOR: Pardon me?
17 MR. CROWE: I said that's all he was informed
18 of.
19 MR. TAYLOR: According to his testimony?
20 MR. CROWE: Well, according to what you've
21 asked him here. That doesn't mean that Floyd Durr
22 had committed the murder.
23 It just means that these are things
24 that he became aware of. You keep saying that he
217
1 committed the murder. That's the objection.
2 BY MR. TAYLOR:
3 Q Well, what I'm asking you is you said
4 at some point in November you met with the state's
5 attorney's office concerning charging Floyd Durr with
6 the murder of Ryan Harris; isn't that right?
7 A It was charging Floyd Durr with the
8 murder of Ryan Harris and other -- some other cases,
9 as I remember.
10 Q Okay. And did you recommend to the
11 state's attorney that he be charged at that time with
12 the murder of Ryan Harris?
13 A I made no recommendation whatsoever.
14 Q Was this after your detectives and
15 your task force had determined that, in their
16 opinion, Floyd Durr should be charged with the murder
17 of Ryan Harris?
18 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
19 THE WITNESS: As I remember, I think so.
20 BY MR. TAYLOR:
21 Q And did you concur with your task
22 force's determination that there was sufficient
23 evidence to charge Floyd Durr with the murder and
24 assault of Ryan Harris?
218
1 A Well, the detectives said it was his
2 DNA and he had to be on the scene.
3 Q So you did concur then?
4 A We went forward with it.
5 Q Okay. At first did -- did the state's
6 attorney agree with you that Floyd Durr should be
7 charged?
8 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation,
9 mischaracterizes his testimony.
10 THE WITNESS: You know, we went over there and
11 the state's attorney told us what they were going to
12 do.
13 BY MR. TAYLOR:
14 Q And what did they tell you they were
15 going to do?
16 A That they were going to proceed with
17 Floyd Durr and charge him with criminal sexual
18 assault and a number of other things and charge him
19 with the Ryan Harris homicide.
20 Q Did you say "and charge him" or "not
21 charge him"?
22 A I believe they said "and charge him."
23 Q Okay.
24 MR. CROWE: I want to say at this point it's
219
1 about 20 after 5:00. It's my understanding that this
2 was a four-hour dep. I would think that a half hour
3 past 5:00 would include all the breaks that we took
4 in this case.
5 So I think at 5:30 I would think it
6 reasonable to call a recess. I just wanted to
7 forewarn you so that you weren't taken by surprise.
8 I mean, maybe you're done in the next five minutes.
9 I don't know.
10 MR. TAYLOR: Okay. Well, I'll certainly try
11 to get as far as I can. I'm not too far from being
12 done, but I don't know if I can get done in ten
13 minutes or not.
14 I'm sure you'll be reasonable in terms
15 of a few minutes here with regard to the four-hour
16 limit if we can finish it today, wouldn't you be?
17 Okay. I'll mark this as Plaintiffs'
18 Exhibit 307.
19 (Exhibit marked and tendered to
20 witness.)
21 BY MR. TAYLOR:
22 Q Now, let me ask you. Did you at some
23 point after you became aware of the arrest of the
24 little boys learn that Detectives Nathaniel and
220
1 Cassidy were the detectives who had taken the
2 statements of the little boys?
3 A I became aware of that somewhere down
4 the line, yes.
5 Q And did you also become aware at any
6 point that Detective Nathaniel had a record of some
7 35 IAD complains against him prior to this case?
8 A No.
9 Q And were you aware that, in fact,
10 Detective Nathaniel had previously had a case of
11 perjury and false reports sustained against him and
12 charges presented to the police board for his
13 separation?
14 MS. ROSEN: Where he was exonerated.
15 BY MR. TAYLOR:
16 Q Where he was exonerated because the
17 witness against him did not appear.
18 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation. There was
19 no evidence in the record that the reason he was
20 exonerated was because the witness against him did
21 not appear.
22 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not familiar with that.
23 No, sir.
24 BY MR. TAYLOR:
221
1 Q Okay. Did you on or about September
2 10th of '98 see this front-page story of the Tribune
3 entitled, "Officer In Harris Case Coaxed Similar
4 Confession In '94"?
5 A I think -- I believe I remember seeing
6 this.
7 Q Okay. And you knew when you saw this
8 article that this was the same detective who was
9 involved in taking the statement from the
10 seven-year-old and eight-year-old in the Ryan Harris
11 case; isn't that right?
12 A Well, after reading it, yes.
13 Q Okay. And you knew that in the '94
14 case it was a similar confession, that time from a
15 ten-year-old; isn't that right?
16 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation, the
17 confessions being similar.
18 MR. CROWE: Join in the objection.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
20 BY MR. TAYLOR:
21 Q And did you take any action to have
22 any investigation done with regard to the similar
23 case -- I'm sorry -- the '94 case of the ten-year-old
24 and Cassidy's involvement in taking that statement?
222
1 A No, I did not.
2 Q And did you inquire to see whether, in
3 fact, any investigation had been done?
4 A No, I did not.
5 Q Do you know whether, in fact, any
6 investigation was ever opened and whether -- with
7 regard to Cassidy's involvement in that case?
8 A I couldn't say. I don't know.
9 Q Now, in the next few weeks after the
10 dismissal of the cases against the little children,
11 did you move to change any of the procedures and
12 practices within the police department with regard to
13 dealing with juveniles?
14 A Well, I think not only did I. The
15 Chicago Police Department, we did.
16 Q Okay. Did you make changes to assure
17 that juveniles' rights would be better protected with
18 regard to questioning?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And what specific changes did you make
21 within the department rules and regulations with
22 regard to the questioning of juveniles a few weeks
23 after the case was dropped against the children?
24 A To ensure that a parent or guardian
223
1 was present during any questioning of a juvenile
2 under 12, that that six-hour rule for seeking charges
3 against juveniles would go up to 24 hours, that --
4 Q Did you say the hours were changed
5 from six hours to 24 hours?
6 A 24 hours, yes.
7 Q Is that a waiting period or --
8 A Well, it's the time that you have to
9 go through the process, you know, go through the
10 mechanism to make sure that we get things correctly.
11 Q Okay.
12 A Then we instituted what we called the
13 videotaping rooms in all the five detective Areas for
14 adults and juveniles. When it come down to
15 homicides, it will not only be videotaped, but
16 audiotaped, ensuring that command staff, when it came
17 down to juveniles under 12 years old, that a deputy
18 chief of that respective Area, whether it be the
19 Detective Division or Patrol Division, to oversee
20 investigations of cases such as this; that we would
21 institute the sexual offenders data files on the
22 Internet and have a visitation program not only in
23 the Patrol Division, but in the Detective Division,
24 to go out and try and ascertain where these
224
1 registered sex offenders reside and if they are in
2 the proper location where they're supposed to be. If
3 not, issue a warrant for them and try to actively and
4 progressively go out and try to arrest them.
5 Q Okay. This was all in response to the
6 Ryan Harris case?
7 A Well, this -- not only for the Ryan
8 Harris case. We still had a couple of other cases
9 that preceded the Ryan Harris case; Yummy Sandifer,
10 you know, the Eric Morse case. So, you know --
11 Q So it was cumulative that you --
12 A -- we need to look and see what folks
13 were doing not only across the country, but what
14 other police departments were doing because
15 everybody's struggling with this issue when it come
16 down to younger offenders, you know.
17 Q All right. But the real trigger to
18 these substantive changes that you made was the Ryan
19 Harris case.
20 A The real trigger to this was Yummy
21 Sandifer, Eric Morse, and Ryan Harris all together.
22 Q But the other two cases you mentioned
23 had happened several years before the Ryan Harris
24 case, hadn't they?
225
1 A Yes, they did.
2 Q And did you also talk to State's
3 Attorney Devine about having Felony Review of
4 juvenile cases?
5 A Yes, I forgot that. Felony Review,
6 uh, will review all cases when it come down to
7 juveniles, when it come down to cases such as this.
8 And State's Attorney Devine started a
9 juvenile competency commission to look at the
10 problems when it come down to youthful offenders such
11 as this, the problems that we're having not only in
12 this city, but across the state.
13 Q Now, did you recently request that
14 there be a reopening of the IAD investigation into
15 the arrests of the two children in this case?
16 A I didn't. It was probably done at the
17 behest probably of the IAD.
18 Q Okay.
19 A The ADS.
20 Q Do you know why they were reopened at
21 this time?
22 A No, I don't.
23 Q Did you have any input into that?
24 A No, I didn't.
226
1 Q Do you know what the status of those
2 reopened investigations are?
3 A No, I don't.
4 Q Now, at some point in early -- in
5 April of 1999 you appeared at a press conference with
6 State's Attorney Devine to announce the indictment of
7 Floyd Durr for the murder and sexual assault of Ryan
8 Harris; is that right?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Okay. Now, did you both make
11 statements at that press conference?
12 A As I remember, yes, sir.
13 Q Now, do you recall that among the
14 statements that Richard Devine made was that the
15 little boys in this case never should have been
16 charged with the offense?
17 A I would have to see the press release,
18 you know.
19 Q You don't remember that?
20 A No.
21 Q Do you remember saying that there were
22 mistakes made in the investigation?
23 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
24 MR. CROWE: Instead of referring to him, show
227
1 him the statement if you have it.
2 BY MR. TAYLOR:
3 Q Well, I was asking if you would
4 remember that.
5 A I would have to see the press release,
6 Mr. Taylor.
7 Q Okay.
8 A I have two or three press releases a
9 week. I just can't remember them all, I'm telling
10 you.
11 Q Okay. Let me see if I can find the
12 direct statements here to call your attention to.
13 (Brief pause.)
14 Okay. Here. I want to mark this as
15 Plaintiffs' 307.
16 MS. ROSEN: 308.
17 MR. TAYLOR: Okay, 308. Thank you.
18 (Exhibit marked and tendered to
19 witness.)
20 BY MR. TAYLOR:
21 Q This is a Sun-Times article of Friday,
22 April 3rd, '99, and it has a picture of you and
23 Devine at the press conference; is that right?
24 A Um-hum, yes.
228
1 Q Now, I want to call your attention to
2 the second column here of the article. It says,
3 "'Charges should have never been brought against the
4 boys,' Devine said. 'I regret that they were and I
5 regret the pain that has been caused to the boys and
6 their families.'"
7 Do you remember Devine saying that?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Did you agree with his statement?
10 A That was his statement.
11 Q Well, I'm asking you did you agree
12 with it?
13 A Well, not in particular.
14 Q Okay. Did you feel that the children
15 should never have been charged?
16 A Well, I feel that the Chicago Police
17 Department and detectives acted properly. They went
18 with the facts they had in seeking charges.
19 Q Okay. Then -- so, I guess, in that
20 sense you don't agree with Devine; is that right?
21 MR. CROWE: Asked and answered.
22 BY MR. TAYLOR:
23 Q Is that right?
24 A Yes, I'm saying that's his statement.
229
1 Q Then it goes on to attribute to you,
2 Chicago Police Superintendent Terry Hillard, the --
3 there was a bungled investigation and you're saying
4 there were errors made in the handling of this case.
5 Now, did you say there were errors made in the
6 handling of this case?
7 A Well, as far as "bungled
8 investigation," that's the news media.
9 Q Right. But --
10 A The news media said it was bungled.
11 You know, talking about errors made in the handling
12 of this case, mistakes made, you know, I have a very
13 unique way of explaining it.
14 When police officers make legitimate
15 mistakes, whether it be on the job or in their own --
16 well, you know, there is counseling, correction, and
17 discipline. On the other hand, if they get involved
18 in brutality, excessive force, corruption, then we
19 come after them.
20 Errors made in the handling of this
21 case, you know, it might be semantics, but these
22 detectives did a very credible job. They went by the
23 letter of the law at that particular time and they
24 went by the rules and regulations of the Chicago
230
1 Police Department.
2 Q But you did say that there were errors
3 made in the handling of the case, right?
4 A That's what I said, yes.
5 Q What errors were you referring to when
6 you made that statement?
7 A Since I just read it, I didn't write
8 it, it always comes back to me that errors in the
9 sense that this is the first time that the Chicago
10 Police Department ever handled a case such as this
11 with such young individuals, you know.
12 We really -- as a department, as an
13 agency, you know, this is a new frontier, not only
14 for us, but for everyone else, the judicial system,
15 to figure out how you handle kids such as this.
16 Q What specific errors were you
17 referring to?
18 A Well, one of the things that I think
19 we needed to do, you know, if we had had the 24-hour
20 rule instead of the six-hour rule. Errors in that
21 sense.
22 Q Let me stop you there, if I might.
23 The 24-hour rule would have allowed further
24 investigation and looking into the case. Is that
231
1 what you're saying?
2 A Yes.
3 Q All right.
4 A The next thing is that I think that
5 instead of waiting, I should have went and had video
6 and audiotaping probably for five months before this
7 case even went into being. This was on my part so I
8 could see what our detectives went through.
9 Q So then you would have a record as to
10 whether these kids had given these statements and
11 under what circumstances they had given them; is that
12 right, if they had?
13 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
14 BY MR. TAYLOR:
15 Q Well, let me ask this. You had been
16 contemplating having a video system prior to this
17 case, but hadn't moved to implement it. Is that what
18 you're saying?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q That's why you moved so promptly
21 afterwards, right?
22 A Not only this case, but the other two
23 cases that I talked about.
24 Q What about other errors other than the
232
1 ones you've told us?
2 A I think that was it.
3 Q Okay. Those are the major things you
4 were thinking about?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Now, it refers in this article, I
7 believe that it says -- I'm sorry. Give me a moment
8 here. In one of these articles it says that you and
9 Devine apologize to the families. Is that an
10 accurate statement?
11 MR. CROWE: I'll object to that. There was no
12 such --
13 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
14 MR. CROWE: I think there's an article that
15 they apologize to the family of the victim.
16 THE WITNESS: I don't think there is one that
17 says that, Mr. Taylor. Yeah. I don't remember
18 apologizing to the family.
19 BY MR. TAYLOR:
20 Q Is that something you would have done
21 if the occasion arose?
22 A Well, I said time and time again if
23 there was evidence, if facts came forward that would
24 completely exonerate these two young boys from having
233
1 anything to do with Ryan Harris' death, I have no
2 problem with apologizing.
3 Q Are you saying that you don't feel
4 that there's evidence now that completely exonerates
5 these children from participation in the Ryan Harris
6 murder given all you know to this point?
7 A From what I know, from what my -- our
8 Detective Division have not been able to interview
9 these young boys anymore.
10 Q Okay.
11 A You know, this investigation is still
12 not complete.
13 Q So if, in fact, statements were given
14 by these young boys, at that point would you feel
15 that the investigation was complete and that
16 apologies could be made to the families?
17 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
18 question.
19 THE WITNESS: Well, that would be up to my
20 detectives to tell me that the investigation is
21 complete, not Terry Hillard, because I'm not
22 investigating.
23 It's those detectives who are on the
24 front line who need to tell me, Superintendent, this
234
1 investigation is complete and we need to go forward.
2 BY MR. TAYLOR:
3 Q Did you during the pendency of this
4 case have occasion to talk to Mayor Daley about it?
5 A Why would I talk to the mayor about
6 it? No, sir.
7 Q You never spoke to the mayor about it?
8 A No, sir. There are certain things
9 that the mayor needs to know and certain things that
10 the mayor need not know, especially coming from the
11 superintendent. If he wants to know about it, all he
12 has to do is to pick up the Tribune and the
13 Sun-Times.
14 Q Let me ask you this. Did you see the
15 statement by him that he would apologize to the
16 families of the children?
17 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
18 MR. CROWE: And I'll object to the form of the
19 question.
20 THE WITNESS: Well, that's the mayor.
21 BY MR. TAYLOR:
22 Q Did you agree or disagree with his
23 offer of an apology?
24 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Form, foundation.
235
1 THE WITNESS: It's not for me to agree or to
2 disagree. The man is my boss. He does what he wants
3 to do when it come down to this and I have to go the
4 way that I have to go, you know.
5 BY MR. TAYLOR:
6 Q Would you agree with me that the
7 families and these little children have suffered a
8 great deal from their arrests and being branded as
9 some of the youngest murderers in the history of the
10 city?
11 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Foundation.
12 MR. CROWE: And I'll object to that, what he
13 may know or may not know. He's not a doctor or a
14 psychiatrist.
15 Now you're in an area which you really
16 don't need to go into and to which he is not
17 competent to testify.
18 THE WITNESS: The only thing I can say is that
19 if there is sufficient facts and evidence brought
20 before our detectives and they bring it to me and
21 tell me that these kids have never been involved in
22 it, I've said before I have no qualms whatsoever
23 about apologizing. But it has to be clear and
24 precise and clear evidence that they were not
236
1 involved.
2 BY MR. TAYLOR:
3 Q And have you requested of your
4 detectives to bring you that evidence?
5 A Well, it's not up to me to request the
6 detectives to bring me the evidence. You need to
7 talk to the young men, the young boys.
8 Q So if, in fact, the young boys give
9 statements that convince you that they were not
10 involved in this murder, you would then have no
11 qualms about apologizing to their families?
12 A No.
13 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
14 question.
15 MS. ROSEN: Objection. Relevance.
16 THE WITNESS: When you say "statements," you
17 know, giving a statement does not preclude you from,
18 you know, saying that you weren't involved.
19 I think, Mr. Taylor, they need to talk
20 to these young boys and to bring this to some type of
21 closure.
22 BY MR. TAYLOR:
23 Q Okay. Would you find it sufficient if
24 they were examined by your lawyers at a deposition?
237
1 MR. CROWE: I object to this. I think -- it's
2 now 20 minutes to 6:00, and I think you're harassing
3 the witness at this point.
4 THE WITNESS: The lawyers aren't the
5 detectives. These folks over here are not the
6 detectives. They're like me. They haven't had
7 interrogation and interview techniques.
8 BY MR. TAYLOR:
9 Q So unless your detectives are able to
10 question the children again, you would not feel that
11 they could be completely exonerated from involvement
12 in the murder of Ryan Harris; is that right?
13 A I think not just for my sake, but for
14 the sake of Ryan Harris' family, for the sake of the
15 community of Englewood, for the sake of this city, we
16 need to bring this to a close.
17 Q Do you think that the conviction of
18 Floyd Durr and the imposition of the death penalty as
19 being sought by the state's attorney would bring
20 sufficient closure to the family of Ryan Harris as to
21 who murdered her?
22 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
23 question. There's no way he could know.
24 THE WITNESS: From what I understand, Mr. Durr
238
1 has not confessed to this crime.
2 BY MR. TAYLOR:
3 Q Well, the Chicago Police Department
4 doesn't get confessions in every case that they
5 convict people in, do they?
6 MR. CROWE: At this point I'm going to have to
7 call this dep because I think you're just harassing
8 the witness at this point, Mr. Taylor. It is now 20
9 minutes to 6:00.
10 MR. TAYLOR: Let me ask a couple more
11 questions.
12 BY MR. TAYLOR:
13 Q I want to call your attention to the
14 last page of the quotes.
15 A Which one is that, 301?
16 Q Yes. WLS has a quote attributed to
17 you on the 22nd of April of '99. It says, "Hillard,
18 as of this time, says, 'I see no reason why there
19 should be an internal investigation.'" Do you see
20 that?
21 A Which page is that?
22 Q It's the very last page. It's a WLS
23 quote. If you look at --
24 A Oh, yes.
239
1 Q Did you make that statement that was
2 carried on WLS?
3 A I assume I did.
4 Q All right. And at that point even
5 after Durr was charged you felt that there was no
6 reason for an internal investigation to determine
7 whether the police acted -- had committed any
8 misconduct. Is that fair to say?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 MR. TAYLOR: Okay. Thank you, Superintendent.
11 MR. CROWE: Thank you.
12 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.
13
14 FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NOT
SIGNATURE RESERVED
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
240
1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS
2 EASTERN DIVISION
3 MOTHER and FATHER on their own )
behalf and as guardian of the )
4 estate of their son, JOHNNY DOE, )
or R.G., a minor, )
5 )
Plaintiffs, )
6 )
vs. ) No. 99 C 3259
7 )
JAMES CASSIDY #20207, ALLEN ) Judge Lefkow
8 NATHANIEL #20443, SGT. STANLEY )
ZABORAC #1139, SGT. DANIEL )
9 BRANNIGAN #1469, COMMANDING )
YOUTH LT. K. BROWN #202, DET. )
10 PAUL JACKSON #20932, YOUTH INV. )
VINCENT JAMES #40321, YOUTH INV. )
11 ANTHONY POWELL #40060, SGT. )
NELSON #1931, DET. DOLORES MYLES )
12 #20242, DET. SAMUEL BROWN #20826,)
DET. DEVON ANDERSON #5114, )
13 COMMANDER DANIEL GIBSON, YOUTH )
INV. CHARLES BOWEN #40225, and )
14 the CITY OF CHICAGO, )
)
15 Defendants. )
WITNESS CERTIFICATION
16 I hereby certify that I have read the
foregoing transcript of my deposition, given at the
17 time and place aforesaid, consisting of pages 1
through 240; and I do again subscribe and make oath
18 that the same is a true, correct, and complete
transcript of my deposition so given.
19 I have ____ not ____ submitted errata sheets.
20 Signed: _____________________________________
TERRY G. HILLARD, Deponent
21
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO
22 before me this ____ day
of _________A.D., 2001.
23
___________________________
24 NOTARY PUBLIC
241
1 STATE OF ILLINOIS)
) SS:
2 COUNTY OF C O O K)
3
4 I, CARMELLA T. FAGAN, a Certified
5 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public within and for
6 the County of Cook and State of Illinois, do hereby
7 certify that heretofore, to-wit, on the 17th day of
8 May, 2001, personally appeared before me at 3510
9 South Michigan Avenue, Fifth Floor, Chicago,
10 Illinois, TERRY G. HILLARD, a witness in a certain
11 cause now pending and undetermined in said Court.
12 I further certify that the said TERRY
13 G. HILLARD, was by me first duly sworn to testify the
14 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in
15 the cause aforesaid; that the testimony then given by
16 said witness was reported stenographically by me, in
17 the presence of said witness and afterwards reduced
18 to typewriting via computer-aided transcription, and
19 the foregoing is a true and correct transcript of the
20 testimony so given by said witness as aforesaid.
21 The signature of the witness to the
22 foregoing deposition was reserved by agreement of
23 counsel for the respective parties.
24 I further certify that the taking of
242
1 this deposition was pursuant to notice, and that
2 there were appearances as heretofore noted.
3 I further certify that I am not counsel
4 for nor in any way related to any of the parties to
5 this suit, nor am I in any way interested in the
6 outcome thereof.
7 In testimony whereof I have hereunto
8 set my hand and affixed my notarial seal this ______
9 day of __________, ______.
10
11 ________________________________
12 Carmella T. Fagan, CSR, RPR
13
14 My notary expires:
15 ________________________________
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