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<PRE>
1
1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS
2 EASTERN DIVISION
3 MOTHER and FATHER on their own )
behalf and as guardian of the )
4 estate of their son, JOHNNY DOE, )
or R.G., a minor, )
5 )
Plaintiffs, )
6 )
vs. ) No. 99 C 3259
7 )
JAMES CASSIDY #20207, ALLEN ) Judge Lefkow
8 NATHANIEL #20443, SGT. STANLEY )
ZABORAC #1139, SGT. DANIEL )
9 BRANNIGAN #1469, COMMANDING )
YOUTH LT. K. BROWN #202, DET. )
10 PAUL JACKSON #20932, YOUTH INV. )
VINCENT JAMES #40321, YOUTH INV. )
11 ANTHONY POWELL #40060, SGT. )
NELSON #1931, DET. DOLORES MYLES )
12 #20242, DET. SAMUEL BROWN #20826,)
DET. DEVON ANDERSON #5114, )
13 COMMANDER DANIEL GIBSON, YOUTH )
INV. CHARLES BOWEN #40225, and )
14 the CITY OF CHICAGO, )
)
15 Defendants. )
16 The deposition of TERRY G. HILLARD, pursuant
17 to notice and pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil
18 Procedure for the United States District Courts
19 pertaining to the taking of depositions, taken before
20 Carmella T. Fagan, C.S.R., R.P.R., Notary Public
21 within and for the County of Cook and State of
22 Illinois, at 3510 South Michigan Avenue, Fifth Floor,
23 in the City of Chicago, Cook County, Illinois,
24 commencing at 1:10 p.m. on the 17th day of May, 2001.
2
1 There were present during the taking
2 of this deposition the following counsel:
3
THE PEOPLES LAW OFFICE,
4 (1180 North Milwaukee Avenue
Chicago, Illinois 60622)
5 BY: MR. G. FLINT TAYLOR
On behalf of the Plaintiffs;
6
THE PEOPLES LAW OFFICE,
7 (1180 North Milwaukee Avenue
Chicago, Illinois 60622)
8 BY: MS. JAN SUSLER
On behalf of the Plaintiffs;
9
SHEFSKY & FROELICH,
10 (444 North Michigan Avenue
Chicago, Illinois 60611)
11 BY: MR. MICHAEL SHEEHAN
On behalf of the City of Chicago;
12
SHEFSKY & FROELICH,
13 (444 North Michigan Avenue
Chicago, Illinois 60611)
14 BY: MR. BRIAN L. CROWE
On behalf of the City of Chicago;
15
ASSISTANT CORPORATION COUNSEL,
16 (Individual Defense Litigation
Division
17 30 North LaSalle Street
Room 900
18 Chicago, Illinois 60602)
BY: MS. EILEEN E. ROSEN
19 On behalf of the
Individual Defendants.
20
CITY OF CHICAGO, DEPARTMENT OF POLICE,
21 (General Counsel to the Superintendent
3510 South Michigan Avenue
22 Chicago, Illinois 60653
BY: MS. KAREN A. ROWAN
23 On behalf of Terry G. Hillard.
24
3
1 I N D E X
2 WITNESS: PAGE
3 TERRY G. HILLARD
4 Examination by Mr. Taylor: 4
5
6
7 E X H I B I T S
8
Plaintiffs' No. 298 22
9 Plaintiffs' No. 299 42
Plaintiffs' No. 300 107
10 Plaintiffs' No. 301 140
Plaintiffs' No. 302 146
11 Plaintiffs' No. 303 146
Plaintiffs' No. 304 149
12 Plaintiffs' No. 305 171
Plaintiffs' No. 306 184
13 Plaintiffs' No. 307 219
Plaintiffs' No. 308 227
14
15
16
CERTIFIED QUESTIONS
17
None.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
4
1 (Witness sworn.)
2 TERRY G. HILLARD,
3 called as a witness herein, having been first
4 duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
5 EXAMINATION
6 BY MR. TAYLOR:
7 Q Okay. Could you state your name and
8 spell your last name for the record,
9 A Terry G. Hillard, H-i-l-l-a-r-d.
10 Q Superintendent Hillard, are you the
11 superintendent of police of the Chicago Police
12 Department?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q And for how long have you held that
15 post?
16 A Approximately three years and two
17 months.
18 Q Okay. So that would be approximately
19 March, February or March, of --
20 A February the 18th, 1998, is when I was
21 promoted by the mayor.
22 Q Okay. How long have you been with the
23 Chicago Police Department?
24 A I'm in my 34th year now.
5
1 Q Okay. Prior to becoming the
2 superintendent, were you the chief of detectives?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q Okay. How long did you hold that
5 post?
6 A As I remember, it was close to
7 probably about 25, 26 months, somewhere right in
8 there.
9 Q Okay. Did you have deputy chiefs
10 working for you?
11 A Yes, I did.
12 Q Was one of those deputy chiefs Richard
13 Frangella?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q Which field group was he in charge of?
16 Do you recall?
17 A His name is John Frangella.
18 Q I'm sorry. Do you remember which
19 field group he was in charge of?
20 A As I remember, he was in Field Group
21 A, the south side.
22 Q Now, who was in charge of Field Group
23 B under your command?
24 A As I remember, I believe Deputy Chief
6
1 Maurer, I believe.
2 Q That's M-a-u-r-e-r?
3 A Yes.
4 Q All right. Now, did you answer to a
5 deputy superintendent as chief of detectives?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And who did you answer to?
8 A Deputy Superintendent Michael Malone.
9 Q He was the deputy in charge of what
10 services, Inspectional?
11 A Bureau of Investigative Services.
12 Q Investigative. I'm sorry. He, in
13 turn, answered to the superintendent; is that right?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q At that time was Rodriguez the
16 superintendent?
17 A Matt Rodriguez. Yes, sir.
18 Q Now, prior to the 26 months or so that
19 you spent as chief of detectives, where were you
20 assigned?
21 A Prior to that I was the deputy chief
22 of Area 2 Patrol Division, south side.
23 Q How long did you hold that post?
24 A It was close to a little over two
7
1 years, I think.
2 Q Now, did you answer to a deputy
3 superintendent in that post as well?
4 A I really answered to the chief of
5 Patrol. That was my immediate supervisor, the chief
6 of Patrol, at that time.
7 Q And who was he?
8 A It was John Cadigan.
9 Q What year did you become a Chicago
10 police officer?
11 A 11 March 1968.
12 Q And did you for a while after that
13 assume patrol -- did you go to the academy?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q How long were you in the academy?
16 A You're talking about a long time ago.
17 I think I was probably in there close to about 13, 14
18 weeks.
19 Q Okay.
20 A An approximation. I don't know exact.
21 Q What was your educational background
22 prior to coming to the police department?
23 A I had a high school education.
24 Q What high school did you graduate
8
1 from?
2 A Wendell Phillips High School.
3 Q Here in Chicago?
4 A Here in Chicago.
5 Q After you came out of the academy,
6 were you assigned to a particular police district?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Did you have particular duties at that
9 district?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q For how long and to what district were
12 you assigned?
13 A I went to the 18th District. That was
14 the old Chicago Avenue District, and I spent
15 approximately about seven, eight months there.
16 Q Did you move to other districts as a
17 patrol officer?
18 A From there I went to what we called
19 the Task Force, South Side Task Force, at 91st and
20 Cottage Grove.
21 Q Did that have different investigative
22 functions than a patrol officer?
23 A I was -- it was in Patrol. I was
24 still in Patrol.
9
1 Q How long did you stay at the Task
2 Force?
3 A I would say approximately a little
4 over two years.
5 Q All right. Then where were you
6 assigned?
7 A Then I went to -- I got, as I remember
8 -- and this is not verbatim now. As I remember, I
9 got assigned to the 7th District and then back to
10 Task Force. Then I went to the 2nd District --
11 Q Okay.
12 A -- and then went to bodyguard detail
13 with Daddio Daley.
14 Q Okay. What year was that that you
15 went to bodyguard detail?
16 A It was in the early '70s. I can only
17 tell you that.
18 Q Did at some point you make sergeant?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And when was that?
21 A Uh, that was in the early part of the
22 '80s, I believe it was, 1980, '81.
23 Q Have you ever been a detective?
24 A No, sir.
10
1 Q So when you made sergeant, were you
2 then assigned to a patrol district?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Where were you assigned?
5 A I was on the dignitary protection
6 security detail for Mayor Jane Byrne.
7 Q And then did you continue to be on
8 that detail with Mayor Washington for a while?
9 A When Mayor Washington came in, I left
10 for a period of time, but I was brought back.
11 Q Was that during the time that you went
12 to the FBI for a while or were detailed to the FBI?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q At some point did you conclude your
15 duties as being on the detail for Mayor Washington?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q What year was that?
18 A It was -- I left, going to the FBI
19 academy, in July of 1984 and went there for
20 approximately three months. It was almost three
21 months. And when I came back, I was assigned to the
22 9th District.
23 Q As a sergeant?
24 A Yes, sir.
11
1 Q And how long did you stay at the 9th
2 District?
3 A Probably about three days.
4 Q Okay. And then where were you
5 assigned?
6 A I went back to the Intelligence
7 Section.
8 Q You worked as a sergeant in the
9 Intelligence Division?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And for how long did you stay there?
12 A Approximately six and a half years.
13 Q And had you been at the Intelligence
14 Division prior to that?
15 A Just for the little time between when
16 I had left Mayor Byrne's detail and when I went back
17 to Mayor Washington's detail.
18 Q Okay. So for the six and a half years
19 that you were at the Intelligence Division, that was
20 in the late '80s? Is that when that was?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Did you have a particular assignment?
23 Did you work organized crime or some other aspect,
24 generally speaking, in the Intelligence Division?
12
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q What did you work?
3 A First I started out and I started
4 working organized crime and moved from organized
5 crime to working terrorism.
6 Q Okay. Did at some point you leave the
7 Intelligence Division?
8 A When I got promoted to lieutenant.
9 Q What year was that?
10 A That was about 1990, '91, somewhere in
11 there.
12 Q Okay. Upon leaving and becoming a
13 lieutenant, where were you assigned?
14 A I went to Gang Crimes South at 51st
15 and Wentworth as a watch commander.
16 Q All right. Were there any particular
17 youth gangs that you specialized in with regard to
18 your work at Gang Crimes?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q You dealt with all investigations as
21 to any gangs that were in Gang Crimes South? Was it
22 Gang Crimes South at that point?
23 A It was Gang Crimes South. I was a
24 watch commander in charge of the afternoon watch.
13
1 Q And for how long did you stay at Gang
2 Crimes South?
3 A Approximately four and a half months.
4 Q From there where were you assigned?
5 A I was assigned to the Narcotics
6 Division over at 35th Street.
7 Q That was, what, in 1991?
8 A It was about 1991. Yes, sir.
9 Q Were you a watch commander or a
10 commander?
11 A I was commanding officer of what we
12 call the Special Investigations. It was long-term
13 investigations, narcotics investigations.
14 Q And for how long did you remain at
15 that location as the lieutenant?
16 A I think about four, five months.
17 Q And from where -- to where were you
18 assigned after that?
19 A Right after that I was promoted to
20 commander of the 6th District, Gresham District.
21 Q Were you still a lieutenant or had you
22 made captain?
23 A No, I was still a lieutenant.
24 Q Are you a captain now?
14
1 A No, sir.
2 Q I'm sorry. You said you were sent to
3 the Gresham District?
4 A The 6th District. Yes, sir.
5 Q As the commanding officer?
6 A No, as commander.
7 Q Commander. Okay. And that was in '91
8 or '92?
9 A That was in '91.
10 Q How long did you remain the commander
11 of the 6th District?
12 A I would say probably 25, 26 months.
13 Q Was the next assignment to the
14 Detective Division or did you have an assignment in
15 between?
16 A No. The next assignment was to the
17 deputy chief of Area 2 Patrol.
18 Q From there you then went to the
19 Detective Division as the chief of detectives?
20 A Yes, sir.
21 Q Now, in your training as a Chicago
22 police officer did you have training to become a
23 sergeant?
24 A Yes, sir.
15
1 Q Did you also have training to become a
2 lieutenant?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q In any of your training could you tell
5 us did you have any training in the questioning of
6 suspects and witnesses?
7 A Me personally?
8 Q Yes, you personally.
9 A No, sir.
10 Q And, I would take it, specifically
11 then you had no training in questioning of juveniles;
12 is that right?
13 A That's right, sir.
14 Q Were you familiar with the procedures
15 within the Chicago Police Department with regard to
16 questioning of suspects and witnesses?
17 A What do you mean?
18 MR. CROWE: At what period of time?
19 MR. TAYLOR: Well, at any period of time.
20 THE WITNESS: Now, when you say "familiar,"
21 can you be a little more specific?
22 BY MR. TAYLOR:
23 Q Well, were you conversant or did you
24 know what the procedures were within the police
16
1 department for questioning juveniles?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q All right. Do you now?
4 A To some degree. Yes, sir.
5 Q Okay. And when did you first become
6 familiar with those procedures to the degree you are
7 now familiar?
8 A Probably after the Ryan Harris
9 incident.
10 Q Okay. So --
11 MR. CROWE: I'm sorry. Could you read that
12 last answer back.
13 (Record read.)
14 Thanks.
15 BY MR. TAYLOR:
16 Q Now, were you appointed to the -- to
17 be chief of detectives by Matt Rodriguez?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Did you request that assignment or was
20 that something that just came in the normal course of
21 business?
22 A No, I did not request it.
23 Q Okay. Could you give us the closest
24 that you can remember the date that you were assigned
17
1 as chief of detectives?
2 A As I remember, I think it was
3 somewhere, like, in April of '95. I know it was in
4 1995. I think it was during the month of April or
5 May, one of those two months. An exact date I
6 couldn't tell you.
7 Q In your duties as a patrol officer and
8 as a sergeant and later as a lieutenant, did you have
9 experience in questioning witnesses and suspects?
10 A When you say questioning suspects,
11 can -- tell me exactly what you mean when you say
12 questioning suspects, you know, when -- if I'm
13 filling out a case report or arrest report, you're
14 not talking about -- are you talking about that or
15 what?
16 Q Well, no. I see what you're saying.
17 I mean substantive questioning about a crime, let's
18 say, questioning them about if they were a witness or
19 if -- what information they knew about a crime that
20 you were investigating.
21 A I have --
22 MR. CROWE: I'll just object as to whether
23 Mr. Taylor is talking about whether they are in
24 custody or not in custody.
18
1 MR. TAYLOR: Right now it's a general question
2 covering all circumstances.
3 THE WITNESS: Well, I've questioned, you know,
4 individuals, whether it was in custody or whether it
5 was out of custody, you know.
6 BY MR. TAYLOR:
7 Q Had you had an occasion to question
8 juveniles, whether they were in custody or out of
9 custody?
10 A Not to my recollection, no.
11 Q So, I take it, then you hadn't had any
12 experience in questioning little children of the ages
13 similar to the ones that were arrested originally in
14 this case, the Ryan Harris case.
15 A Who? Me personally?
16 Q You personally. Yes, sir.
17 A No, sir.
18 Q Now, in 19 -- did you say -- I'm
19 sorry. I didn't hear your answer in terms of -- did
20 you say 1997 when you came to the Detective Division
21 or did you say 1996?
22 A I said 1995.
23 Q I guess I really didn't hear you at
24 all, did I. In 1995 when you came to the Detective
19
1 Division as the chief, was it your duty to appoint
2 the personnel under your command or were they
3 assigned to you?
4 A It all depends on what personnel
5 you're talking about.
6 Q Specifically the deputy chiefs.
7 A No, sir. That came from the
8 superintendent of police.
9 Q Did you have a staff?
10 A Yes, I had a staff.
11 Q And did you have a lieutenant on your
12 staff?
13 A Yes, I did.
14 Q And who was that lieutenant?
15 A At that time it was Lieutenant James
16 Malloy.
17 Q Did he remain with you during the time
18 that you were at the Detective Division?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q Did you have any kind of chief of
21 staff or administrative assistant that handled some
22 of your work?
23 A No.
24 Q Would Malloy have been the equivalent
20
1 of your chief of staff or administrative assistant?
2 A He would have been the equivalent of
3 my administrative assistant.
4 Q Did you have any sergeants or others
5 that worked on your direct staff?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And who worked with you as a sergeant?
8 A Sergeant Marjorie O'Day, Sergeant Paul
9 Carroll, and Sergeant Padgurskas, Charles Padgurskas.
10 Q Anyone else that was on your direct
11 staff other than the persons you've named for me?
12 A At one time Sergeant Jack Ridges
13 worked out of the Detective Division once we
14 initiated Cold Case Central and Homicide Squad.
15 Q What year was that?
16 A That had to be the last year that I
17 was there as chief of detectives.
18 Q That would have been '98 or --
19 A I believe in '97.
20 Q Was there a time period between the
21 time that you became superintendent in early 1998 and
22 the time that you left as deputy -- excuse me -- as
23 chief of detectives, or did you move right from chief
24 of detectives to being the superintendent?
21
1 A Well, there was a time period in the
2 sense that I was selected by the mayor and I had to
3 be approved before the city council.
4 I still worked out of the office of
5 the chief of detectives. I didn't move into the
6 superintendent's office until I was confirmed by the
7 city council.
8 Q How long a period of time are we
9 talking about?
10 A Probably talking about a couple of
11 months, I believe.
12 Q All right. So would it be fair to say
13 that you worked in the Detective -- as chief of
14 detectives right up until the end of '97 and perhaps
15 a little bit into the beginning of '98?
16 A Well, I was still the chief of
17 detectives for the full year of '97 because I wasn't
18 appointed to superintendent until 18 February 1998.
19 Q Okay. Now, was one of the things that
20 was done at the Detective Division to do reports and
21 analyses concerning crime patterns?
22 A That was one of the small units we had
23 there, yes, sir.
24 Q Okay. Was there a crime -- what was
22
1 the name of that unit?
2 A Analytical Unit.
3 Q Okay.
4 MR. CROWE: This is when he was chief of
5 detectives.
6 MS. ROSEN: Right. Right.
7 BY MR. TAYLOR:
8 Q And who was the head of the Analytical
9 Unit while you were chief?
10 A At that time, as I remember, Sergeant
11 Paul Carroll.
12 Q Now, I want to show you what I'm going
13 to have marked here as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 298.
14 (Exhibit marked and tendered to
15 witness.)
16 Do you recognize the kind of document
17 that Plaintiffs' Exhibit 298 is?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q What is it?
20 A This is an aggravated criminal sexual
21 assault. It's what we call a crime pattern.
22 Q All right. Was this issued by the
23 unit that you testified that Officer Carroll was in
24 charge of?
23
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q And I notice at the bottom, is that
3 your signature or is that someone else that --
4 A No, sir, I don't write that good.
5 Q So someone else was signing it in your
6 stead?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Now, when a crime analysis pattern is
9 issued, is it normally issued with the signature of
10 the chief or someone acting in his stead?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And do you recognize who may have
13 signed your name on this one?
14 A Well, that could have been Sergeant
15 Paul Carroll, it could have been Lieutenant Malloy.
16 Q Either of them were authorized --
17 A Yes.
18 Q -- to sign your name? Okay. Around
19 the time that this particular crime pattern was
20 issued, were you aware of this particular crime
21 pattern?
22 A You know, it doesn't bring back any --
23 ring any bells or anything like that.
24 Q Would you, from time to time, as chief
24
1 of detectives review crime analysis pattern reports
2 that were issued?
3 A From time to time, yes.
4 Q And under what circumstances would you
5 review those?
6 A Well, it depends on the crime, you
7 know. If there was an inordinate amount of bank
8 robberies, an inordinate amount of criminal sexual
9 assaults, an inordinate amount of people, like, we
10 had female streetwalkers dying in a particular
11 neighborhood, that would be brought to my attention.
12 Q Okay. But you don't know whether this
13 crime pattern, this particular crime pattern, was
14 called to your attention or not while you were chief
15 of detectives?
16 A I can't say yes or no on that,
17 Counsel.
18 Q Okay. From this report it had a
19 fairly wide distribution; is that right?
20 A Yeah, it should have. Well, if you
21 look at it, the 2nd and the 7th District --
22 Q Okay.
23 A -- are the two districts, but most of
24 the -- if you look over on the left-hand side, a lot
25
1 of the specialized units got it.
2 The Special Operations Section
3 received it, the Special Functions Section, and the
4 district Tactical and also the field units.
5 Q And then Area 1, various portions of
6 Area 1 got it?
7 A Right.
8 Q Which, of course, covers both the 2nd
9 and the 7th District; is that right?
10 A Yes. And --
11 Q At --
12 MR. CROWE: I'm sorry. Have you finished your
13 answer?
14 THE WITNESS: No.
15 BY MR. TAYLOR:
16 Q I'm sorry.
17 A And then over on the right-hand side,
18 all the units from Organized Crime and really from
19 the Detective Division, especially those units that
20 encompass organized crime and prostitution, that was
21 on there.
22 Q Okay. At whose initiation would a
23 crime analysis pattern be issued?
24 A Well, the analyst who works out of
26
1 this unit would take and review all those particular
2 case reports for that respective crime that he was in
3 charge of.
4 This is from a sexual assault case, so
5 the individual who was in charge of criminal sexual
6 assault cases, or whether it be a robbery case or
7 whether it be a burglary case, those different
8 analysts, whoever it is, he would come up with the
9 analysis and then submit it to a sergeant.
10 Q Okay. And was there, while you were
11 at the Detective Division as its chief, were there
12 computerized systems for looking for crime patterns?
13 A Well, when you say, "computerized
14 systems," I need to know what you're talking about.
15 Q Well, let me ask you. Are you
16 familiar with a system called ICAM?
17 A Yeah. But ICAM, as I remember, ICAM
18 hadn't came in during this time --
19 Q Okay.
20 A -- as I remember.
21 Q All right. Do you remember when it
22 did come in?
23 A I think ICAM came in right when I
24 became superintendent, not too long after I became
27
1 superintendent, the best of my recollection.
2 You know, I can check on that for you.
3 But, you know, I think 1997, 18 February 1997, I
4 don't think ICAM was operational then.
5 Q Was there any other way to use
6 computerized data to search for crime patterns while
7 you were chief of detectives?
8 A Well, as I remember, the majority of
9 this was done manually, those detectives sitting down
10 and going through those particular case reports from
11 their respective Area of assignment and reading them
12 verbally and manually.
13 Q Okay. Would this be done by the
14 detectives at headquarters in the Crime Analysis Unit
15 or would this be out in the Areas that it would be
16 done?
17 A Well, detectives at headquarters, but
18 also you had detectives out in the field who would go
19 over the case reports also.
20 Q Okay. Were crime analysis patterns
21 done in homicides and sexual assault cases, robbery
22 cases, all those different kinds of cases?
23 A If there was a pattern.
24 Q To look for one?
28
1 A Yeah.
2 Q Could a request come from an Area to
3 have the Crime Analysis Unit look for a pattern if
4 someone out in the district or the Area wanted to see
5 if there was such a pattern?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q Okay. Did that happen while you were
8 chief of detectives periodically?
9 A I'm quite sure it did.
10 Q All right. Now, when you came to be
11 the superintendent, you had various deputy
12 superintendents on your command staff; is that right?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q Were those selections made by you or
15 were they appointments made by someone else?
16 A Well, when I became superintendent, I
17 only made one appointment.
18 Q And what appointment did you make?
19 A That was Deputy Superintendent Jeannie
20 Clark.
21 Q What was her title that you appointed
22 her to?
23 A I think I appointed her to deputy
24 superintendent of Staff Services, I believe.
29
1 Q And the others you kept in place from
2 the previous administration; is that right?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q So who was the first deputy
5 superintendent?
6 A John Townsend.
7 Q Okay. Who else other than Townsend
8 and Clark were deputy superintendents when you --
9 A Deputy Superintendent Mike Malone,
10 Bureau of Investigative Services; Deputy
11 Superintendent James Whigham, Bureau of Technical
12 Services; and Deputy Superintendent of Administrative
13 Services, Harris, John Harris.
14 Q Anyone else? Does that cover all of
15 them?
16 A That should be five of them.
17 Q Okay. Did you have a practice while
18 you were superintendent to have daily briefings or
19 daily meetings with your command staff?
20 A I had tried to have what we call a
21 morning staff meeting. Every morning I would try,
22 you know, but sometimes I'm not able to.
23 Q All right. If you were out of town or
24 otherwise busy, you might not have one?
30
1 A Right.
2 Q But would you say normally you would
3 have one each day?
4 A I would try.
5 Q Did you come in around 8:30 in the
6 morning?
7 A Usually I would come in about 8:00,
8 8:15.
9 Q And would that be the first thing you
10 would do that morning if you had one, have a
11 briefing, or would you --
12 A It was usually held between 9:00 and
13 9:15.
14 Q And for how long did you schedule the
15 meetings? In other words, how long were they in
16 terms of time?
17 A The meetings go anywhere from -- it
18 all depends on what the participants have to discuss,
19 you know. But it would go anywhere from 15 minutes
20 to 30, 35, 40 minutes.
21 Q Would the deputy superintendents each
22 report on significant business in cases that they
23 were involved in to you each morning?
24 A Out of their respective bureau, yes,
31
1 sir.
2 Q And other than the deputy
3 superintendents who attended the meeting along with
4 you, these briefings along with you, who else
5 normally attended, if anyone?
6 A Well, the deputy superintendent, the
7 secretary, the press secretary; the administrator
8 from OPS, the assistant deputy superintendent of IAD,
9 the general counsel.
10 Q Did you have an administrative
11 assistant?
12 A And my administrative assistant, yes,
13 sir.
14 Q When you came in, did you appoint an
15 administrative assistant or did you assume the one
16 that was already there?
17 A I assumed the one that was already
18 there.
19 Q Who was that?
20 A That was Commander Gerald Mahnke.
21 Q Is he still your administrative
22 assistant?
23 A No, sir. He's commander of Area 5
24 Detective Division.
32
1 Q Okay. When was he replaced?
2 A Approximately two years ago.
3 Q All right. So he would have been your
4 administrative assistant during the Ryan Harris case?
5 A I believe so, yes, sir.
6 Q Okay. Who was he replaced by?
7 A Um, Commander Joseph Gandurski.
8 Q Is he still your administrative
9 assistant?
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q And you said legal counsel would
12 normally attend these briefings?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q Did you assume legal counsel from
15 Deputy -- excuse me -- Superintendent Rodriguez?
16 A Uh, for a couple of months.
17 Q Was that Zoufal?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Then did you replace Zoufal or was he
20 replaced with another counsel?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Was that Needham that replaced him?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q At some point Needham was appointed to
33
1 another position within your administration, was he
2 not?
3 A I appointed him to chief of staff.
4 Q Okay. Does he hold that position now?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q When did you appoint him to that
7 position?
8 A Um, I believe it was almost a year
9 ago.
10 Q Do you now have legal counsel?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Is she present today?
13 A That's her down on the end, Ms. Karen
14 Rowan.
15 Q All right. Very good. And she took
16 Needham's place; is that right?
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q Now, you say that -- who was your
19 chief of staff when you became superintendent?
20 A There was no chief of staff then.
21 Q Okay. Did you create that position?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q You created that position about a year
24 ago?
34
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q All right. Does the chief of staff
3 have a different role than the administrative
4 assistant did prior to you creating the chief of
5 staff?
6 A Say that again.
7 Q What does the chief of staff do?
8 A The chief of staff, what's his job
9 now?
10 Q Um-hum.
11 A His job is to handle those tasks that
12 I don't have the time to handle when it comes down to
13 interacting with certain elected officials, when it
14 comes down to attending meetings down at city hall
15 that I don't have -- you know, that my time won't
16 allow me to be two places at one time, and to help me
17 out that way.
18 Q Okay. Was that one of the tasks that
19 the administrative assistant performed before you
20 created the chief of staff?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q Okay. What did and does the
23 administrative assistant do?
24 A Administrative assistant handles all
35
1 the invitations, you know, he oversees all the
2 invitations that the superintendent receives in order
3 to appear before certain community groups, certain
4 political groups, certain faith-based organizations,
5 to help and oversee my scheduling, to ensure that
6 when I have to travel outside the city, along with
7 his staff, see that contact is made with persons
8 outside the city so that when I get there, things are
9 set up for me to proceed without any disruption, to
10 take and review those public speeches that I have to
11 present, things such as that, and really to run the
12 superintendent's office, oversee the running of the
13 superintendent's office.
14 Q Now, while you were chief of
15 detectives, did you have any dealings with Commander
16 Dan Gibson who became the commander of Area 1 around
17 the time of the Ryan Harris case?
18 A When you say, "dealings," what do you
19 mean?
20 Q Did you know Dan Gibson while you were
21 chief of detectives?
22 A Yeah, I knew Dan Gibson when I was
23 chief of detectives. Yes, sir.
24 Q Did you work -- did he work for you or
36
1 with you on any cases?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q Did you know Lieutenant Cornfield
4 while you were chief of detectives?
5 A Yes, I did.
6 Q What was Cornfield's -- how did you
7 happen to know Cornfield? In what context did you
8 know him?
9 A He was the administrative assistant to
10 Deputy Superintendent Mike Malone when I was chief of
11 detectives.
12 Q And did you know -- let me ask you
13 this. Did you know Detective Allen Nathaniel prior
14 to the Ryan Harris case?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q Did you know Detective James Cassidy
17 prior to the Ryan Harris case?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q Did you know Sergeant Stanley Zaborac
20 prior to the Ryan Harris case?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q All right. And in what context did
23 you know him?
24 A Stan Zaborac used to be a Tac sergeant
37
1 for the commander of the 2nd District.
2 Q While you were there?
3 A No, while -- I'm going back a couple
4 years now, but I knew that he was a Tac sergeant down
5 there, you know.
6 Q Did you have any dealings with him?
7 Did you work with him on any cases?
8 A I never worked with him on any cases
9 or anything like that, but, you know, I knew him. I
10 knew that he was a good Tac sergeant, ran a good
11 team, a good police officer.
12 Q So you thought he was a good officer
13 from what you had heard about him?
14 A Well, that's what I thought and that's
15 what I felt and I still think that today.
16 Q Okay. Did you know Sergeant Daniel
17 Brannigan prior --
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q -- to the Ryan Harris case? How did
20 you happen to know him?
21 A I used to work with Dan Brannigan,
22 Sergeant Brannigan, when I was a patrolman in Gang
23 Crimes South.
24 Q He was a patrolman and you were the
38
1 watch commander there?
2 A No, this goes back even further than
3 that. This is gang investigations when we first got
4 started out on 91st Street.
5 Q What year was that?
6 A About 1974.
7 Q So this is before you made sergeant?
8 A Yeah, this was before I made sergeant.
9 Q Did you work with him as a partner?
10 A No, no. We worked on the same shift,
11 third watch, the same office.
12 Q Did you do any investigations with
13 him?
14 A No.
15 Q Did you work on cases with him?
16 A No, sir.
17 Q But you knew him because he was on the
18 same watch with you?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q All right. And did you have any
21 opinion of him as a police officer?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q And what was that?
24 A A very good police officer, very
39
1 motivated.
2 Q Okay. Did you know with regard to
3 either Brannigan or Zaborac their disciplinary
4 backgrounds, what, if any, disciplinary allegations
5 they had had against them?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Have you ever investigated that?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q Okay.
10 A Can we back up here?
11 MR. CROWE: Sure.
12 THE WITNESS: Now, when you asked me if I had
13 worked with Dan Brannigan when I was a patrolman and
14 I said no cases or anything like that, but he did
15 work for me when I became a lieutenant.
16 BY MR. TAYLOR:
17 Q That was the next thing I was going to
18 ask you.
19 A Okay. I just didn't want that to slip
20 through the cracks, you know.
21 Q When you became a lieutenant and went
22 back to Gang Crimes, he was still there, right?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q At that time was he a sergeant or was
40
1 he still a --
2 A He was a sergeant. As I remember, he
3 was a sergeant.
4 Q So he worked for you at that time?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Again, did you supervise his work?
7 A To a certain extent. He was -- during
8 that time I was there, he was sort of, like, detailed
9 to -- he was detailed to Alcohol, Tobacco, and
10 Firearms, too. So the majority of the time, he spent
11 the majority of his time over at Alcohol, Tobacco,
12 and Firearms.
13 Q So you didn't supervise him on a
14 day-to-day basis?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q But you did know -- he was working out
17 of your office but detailed somewhere else the
18 majority of the time?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q And did you supervise any
21 investigations that he did?
22 A No.
23 Q Did you continue to have the same
24 opinion of him as a police officer while you were a
41
1 lieutenant at Gang Crimes?
2 A I still have the same opinion of him.
3 He's a dynamite police officer.
4 Q A what?
5 A He's a dynamite police officer.
6 Q Oh, okay. Were you aware that he was
7 involved in the arrest of Andrew Wilson in the Andrew
8 Wilson case?
9 A As I remember vaguely, you know, there
10 was a lot of folks involved in the arrest of the --
11 the Wilson Brothers, you're talking about?
12 Q Right, right.
13 A There was a number of police officers.
14 I don't know if -- what percentage or what part he
15 played in it, but I know there was a number of police
16 officers involved in that.
17 Q Did you know that he was involved?
18 A Not -- you know, I couldn't say
19 verbatim that I knew that he particularly was
20 involved. I know there was a lot of folks that
21 worked on that case.
22 Q Okay. Now, did you know any of the
23 other detectives that were involved in the -- well,
24 let me ask you specifically rather than ask you
42
1 generally. Did you know Devon Anderson?
2 A No, sir.
3 Q And Sam Brown --
4 A No, sir.
5 Q -- Samuel Brown? Paul Jackson?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Now, I want to ask you about July and
8 August of 1998. In order to perhaps help in terms of
9 days you were working and when you were working, we
10 have the A&A sheets.
11 I'm going to mark that as an exhibit
12 and let you have that in front of you so that if you
13 need to -- let's mark this as 299. This is in case
14 you need to look at it to see if you were working or
15 when you were working on a particular day.
16 (Exhibit marked and tendered to
17 witness.)
18 Do you recognize these to be generally
19 what's called the A&A sheets that record the daily
20 attendance of all officers from -- apparently from
21 the superintendent on down --
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q -- all the way to beat patrolmen; is
24 that right?
43
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q These start on the 28th of July and
3 they go up until the 15th of August and then there
4 are several in early September; the 3rd, 4th, and
5 5th. So as we go through your testimony, we can
6 refer to this as necessary to see when and what hours
7 you were working.
8 Looking at the first day, which is the
9 28th, it indicates that you were on duty; is that
10 right?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q And that the -- it appears to be that
13 the normal hours that you worked that day were from
14 8:30 to 4:30; is that right?
15 A You know, I just got to -- I'm not
16 being facetious or anything like that, and I see what
17 the sheets say. But I don't think since -- I know
18 for a fact since I've had this job I have not left
19 this job at 4:30 in the afternoon.
20 Q Well, I notice from the sheets that if
21 you look at the next day, it says, "3 HR AO, 28 July
22 98, 1630 to 1930." Would normally they enter your
23 overtime the next day on the next sheet? Is that the
24 way that --
44
1 A Well, really it's not overtime. They
2 just put the time that we work because the exempt
3 ranks, you know, we don't receive overtime.
4 Q Okay. Well, looking at this sheet in
5 the column that says, "Absence, Explanation of Comp
6 Time Worked," it has, "3 HR AO, 27 July 98, 1630 to
7 1930." Do you see that?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Now, would that indicate that on the
10 27th of July you worked -- well, we won't call it
11 over -- for lack of a better word -- extra hours?
12 A Right. I stayed here until about
13 7:30.
14 Q You stayed until 1930 hours, which is,
15 what, 7:30 in the evening?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Okay. Was that your general practice
18 to at least work three or four hours beyond the bell
19 on the days you were in?
20 A Well, not only during the week, but on
21 the weekend, too.
22 Q Okay. What is "AO"? Do you know what
23 that stands for? "HR," I would assume, is hours. Do
24 you know what "AO" stands for?
45
1 A I have no idea.
2 Q Okay. So this would indicate that on
3 the 27th of July, that being the day that Ryan Harris
4 was reported missing, you were working and you worked
5 your normal or fairly normal 11, 12-hour day; is that
6 right?
7 A Yes, sir.
8 Q Was it called to your attention while
9 she was missing but before her body was found that,
10 in fact, Ryan Harris -- that there was a girl missing
11 in Englewood that turned out to be Ryan Harris?
12 A You know, if I was to be appraised of
13 that, it would probably have been at the morning
14 meeting.
15 Q So it wouldn't have been until the
16 morning of the 28th?
17 A Yeah.
18 Q And if you were appraised of that,
19 would that have come most likely through Deputy
20 Superintendent Malone who is in charge of the
21 Detective Division, among other parts of the
22 department?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q Do you have a recollection of Deputy
46
1 Superintendent Malone informing you of the missing
2 person or child in Englewood that turned out to be
3 Ryan Harris on the 28th, informing you on the 28th?
4 A Normally when we had the normal
5 meeting, we would start with the first deputy who
6 used to sit in the seat to the right of me. He would
7 give his report.
8 Then the deputy superintendent of the
9 Bureau of Investigative Services would give his
10 report, and he would go down and start with the
11 Detective Division first, telling, you know, what
12 outstanding cases that they had.
13 If there was a young child missing,
14 you know, he would bring that up; female, black, age
15 11, 12 years old, missing from such-and-such a
16 location, and then he would go on to the next case.
17 Q Now, in the summer of '98 were you
18 aware of there being a series of unsolved cases
19 having to do with children in the Englewood area?
20 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
21 question.
22 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware of children, you
23 know. I'm aware of --
24 MR. CROWE: Do you mean sexual abuse of
47
1 children, missing children?
2 BY MR. TAYLOR:
3 Q Okay. Well, were you aware of any
4 particular pattern of crimes against children, or
5 young girls, I should say, in July of 1998 when the
6 Ryan Harris case arose?
7 A Not to my recollection, you know. I
8 can't say that I recall it, not to my recollection.
9 Q Do you remember there being any
10 particular community protest or community concern
11 that was articulated to you from Englewood about
12 unsolved crimes in that community?
13 MR. CROWE: Before the Ryan Harris case?
14 MR. TAYLOR: Yes, during -- in July of '98.
15 THE WITNESS: Well, I spent a great deal of
16 time at community meetings over there in Englewood
17 talking about the deaths of some of the ladies who
18 plied their trades on the street, and going over and
19 trying to galvanize that community, tell them what we
20 were trying to do and we needed their help.
21 Q So those were the prostitute murders
22 that were unsolved at that time?
23 A Well, we had a -- we had a number of
24 them, you know.
48
1 Q And so you were at community meetings
2 along with people from Area 1 to discuss with the
3 community those crimes and other crimes that were --
4 that the community chose to raise to you; is that
5 right?
6 A As I remember, you know, I spent a
7 significant amount of time over in Englewood going to
8 community meetings and talking about the problems
9 that we had in Englewood.
10 Q Was one of the problems that was
11 raised with you the fact that there were a series of
12 unsolved sexual assaults against young girls, girls
13 of, say, the ages of ten to 15, in that area?
14 A As I remember, Mr. Taylor, this was
15 having to do with the murders of the prostitutes.
16 Q Okay. So you don't recall the issues
17 beyond the prostitute issue?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q But you were attending a series of
20 meetings in the summer of '98 in Englewood at which
21 concerns about sexual assaults and homicides in that
22 community were being discussed. Is that fair to say?
23 A When it comes down to homicides of the
24 streetwalkers.
49
1 Q Right. Was there a sexual component
2 to those crimes? In other words, were the
3 streetwalkers being --
4 A All of them had a sexual component,
5 you know, when it comes down to the homicides of
6 streetwalkers in Englewood.
7 Q Right. But, I mean, there was a
8 sexual assault aspect to those cases as well; is that
9 right?
10 A Well, they had engaged in sexual
11 activity, yes, sir.
12 Q Okay. And was your -- did you
13 articulate a concern to the Englewood community about
14 these crimes when you went to these meetings?
15 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
16 question.
17 THE WITNESS: Can you be more specific?
18 BY MR. TAYLOR:
19 Q What I'm asking you is did you
20 reassure the community that the police department was
21 doing everything it could to try to solve the crimes
22 that were unsolved in the community?
23 A Well, not only did we do that, but we
24 asked for the input, you know, telling folks that
50
1 this was just not a Chicago Police Department
2 problem. This was an entire community problem, that
3 they had to work with us, you know, if there's
4 someone out there who either saw or knew what's going
5 on.
6 So they needed to work not only with
7 the Chicago Police Department, but with their
8 respective district commander and Area detective
9 commander.
10 Q Okay. Did you receive cooperation
11 from the community?
12 A Uh, I think we did to a certain
13 extent.
14 Q Okay. Are there any records of the
15 meetings that you had with the Englewood community?
16 A Well, I think if it's not on my
17 schedule, the folks that I met with over in
18 Englewood, you know, certain groups over there who I
19 met with, they should have it.
20 MR. CROWE: You're talking about Chicago
21 Police Department records?
22 MR. TAYLOR: Right.
23 THE WITNESS: Okay. I would have to get the
24 schedule.
51
1 BY MR. TAYLOR:
2 Q Was there some kind of official
3 schedule that was kept of your appointments that
4 would reflect when you met with the Englewood
5 community in the summer of '98?
6 A I would have to see if we could ferret
7 that out because you have to realize that first year
8 being in this job I did not have an official
9 scheduler.
10 That didn't happen until almost until
11 1999, when we really started documenting things, you
12 know, the different meetings that we were supposed to
13 attend and things such as that.
14 Q Now, do you have a specific
15 recollection of the Ryan Harris -- of it being called
16 to your attention that Ryan Harris was missing?
17 A It was brought to my attention by
18 Deputy Malone.
19 Q That would have been on the morning of
20 the 28th?
21 A It would probably have been the day
22 after. If it wasn't on a Saturday or Sunday, if it
23 was during a weekday and I attended the morning
24 meeting, you know, Deputy Malone would have brought
52
1 it to my attention.
2 Q Okay. And what did he tell you?
3 A Well, I can't specifically say what he
4 told me. I can say truthfully to tell you that he
5 would state that we have -- if she was a 12,
6 13-year-old, female black, from such-and-such a
7 location, missing, and saying that if we had a plan
8 into effect and what was being done to try and locate
9 this young girl.
10 Q Did you subsequently -- were you
11 subsequently informed of the fact that her body had
12 been found?
13 A Um, Mike Malone would have informed
14 me.
15 Q Okay. Do you have a memory of that?
16 A Vaguely.
17 Q Okay. And what did he tell you with
18 regard to the discovery of her body?
19 A Well, you know, this is not verbatim.
20 This is just going on being, like, an approximation.
21 He would probably have informed me that the missing
22 female black that he had reported on prior to that
23 time had been found and that she was -- she had been
24 murdered or that she was dead, you know.
53
1 Q Did he at that time tell you any of
2 the details concerning the body or how it was found,
3 in what condition it was in?
4 A No, no. That's one of the things -- I
5 never got off into specifics. I never get off into
6 specifics. That's not my job.
7 Q Did he tell you that it appeared that
8 the girl had been sexually assaulted?
9 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the question
10 given the witness's last answer.
11 THE WITNESS: He didn't tell me specifics,
12 Mr. Taylor.
13 BY MR. TAYLOR:
14 Q Not even that specific?
15 A No.
16 Q Okay. Did you give him -- let me ask
17 you this. Were there any notes kept at these daily
18 briefings?
19 A No, sir.
20 Q And there was no recording of it by
21 tape or a reporter or anything like that?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q Okay. After you learned that the Ryan
24 Harris girl had been found murdered, did you give any
54
1 instructions to Malone or anyone else in your chain
2 of command concerning the case?
3 A Well, you know, I don't think I would
4 have to give instructions. Mike Malone was a -- one
5 hell of a detective, you know, in the Detective
6 Division when he was in his younger days.
7 And now here he is, the deputy
8 superintendent of the Bureau of Investigative
9 Services. Mike knew what had to be done.
10 Q So in that sense you relied on Malone
11 to make sure that whatever was necessary to do with
12 regard to the investigation would be done; is that
13 right?
14 A Well, not only Mike Malone, but the
15 entire Detective Division.
16 Q Okay. Did you receive daily updates
17 with regard to the investigation of the Ryan Harris
18 case after the body was found?
19 A Now, when you say, "daily updates" --
20 Q Let me put it this way. Was it a
21 topic of the briefing each day, your morning briefing
22 I'm talking about now, after the body was found?
23 A Mike Malone would come in and he would
24 tell us that, you know, they were still moving ahead
55
1 and trying to locate, identify who the perpetrator
2 was or perpetrators were of this incident.
3 MR. CROWE: Excuse me. I don't think he
4 understands your question. Your question is every
5 day was this discussed? I don't think he understands
6 that.
7 MR. TAYLOR: But he's telling us generally
8 what Malone would say.
9 MR. CROWE: Yeah, he's talking generally, and
10 I think you're asking him every day was this
11 discussed.
12 THE WITNESS: No, no, not every day, you know,
13 because the incident had happened and then it was in
14 the detectives' hands.
15 BY MR. TAYLOR:
16 Q Did Malone give you periodic updates
17 during the first week or two of the investigation?
18 A Not periodic updates. When he had
19 something to give me, he would give it to me, you
20 know. I think he would come in and inform me or tell
21 me, you know, where they were at. But it wasn't
22 every day.
23 Q But it was -- at some point during the
24 first couple of weeks you received updates from
56
1 Malone concerning the case; isn't that right?
2 A Uh, yes.
3 Q Did he update you with regard to what
4 the medical examiner had found in the autopsy of Ryan
5 Harris?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Did you receive any information
8 concerning the nature of the injuries that Ryan
9 Harris had suffered from Malone or anyone else?
10 A Not from Malone or from any of the
11 detectives. You know, all you have to do is read the
12 newspaper.
13 Q Had you read reports in the newspaper
14 about some details with regard to the murder of Ryan
15 Harris?
16 A Well, you read the newspaper and then
17 you have to be very cautious on what you read in the
18 newspaper, you know.
19 Q Sure. But you're saying that there
20 were some -- there were some details with regard to
21 the injuries to Ryan Harris that you saw in the
22 newspaper?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q And did you learn from the newspapers
57
1 that she had suffered head injuries, blunt trauma
2 head injuries?
3 A The only thing I remember reading was
4 blunt trauma.
5 Q Okay. Did you learn anything either
6 from the briefings or the newspapers concerning
7 whether she had skull fractures?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q Did you learn anything from either the
10 newspapers or the briefings in the first week or two
11 of the investigation with regard to whether she had
12 any injury to her brain, such as bruising or bleeding
13 or that kind of thing?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q All right. Did you learn about any
16 other injuries to her other than the fact that she
17 had blunt trauma?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q Okay. Did you learn anything with
20 regard to whether she had been sexually assaulted,
21 whether there was any evidence of sexual assault,
22 either from the newspaper or from your briefings?
23 A No, sir.
24 Q Okay. Did you learn anything either
58
1 from the newspapers or from your briefings about
2 whether she had been suffocated by having a piece of
3 clothing shoved into her mouth?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q Did you learn anything about
6 whether -- what the nature of the weapon was that the
7 investigation had identified as a potential murder
8 weapon?
9 A The only thing that I remember is
10 something about a rock.
11 Q Okay. Now, was it a rock or a brick?
12 A No, it was a rock.
13 Q Now, was it prior to or subsequent to
14 the arrest of the little boys in this case that you
15 learned that there was a rock that was a potential
16 murder weapon, according to the police?
17 A This was after.
18 Q The boys were arrested?
19 A Were arrested.
20 Q Okay.
21 MR. CROWE: I think all the questions
22 Mr. Taylor is asking dealt with before the boys were
23 arrested.
24 BY MR. TAYLOR:
59
1 Q Yes, that's right. That's why I
2 clarified it with you, because I thought you might be
3 talking about afterward.
4 So before the little boys were
5 arrested you had no information as to what, if any,
6 murder weapon the investigation had identified as a
7 possible --
8 A No, I'm sorry.
9 Q Okay. Had you learned anything prior
10 to the arrest of the little boys with regard to the
11 location of where her body was found?
12 A The only thing that I can say is
13 remembering what Malone said, that the body was
14 located and it was in Englewood. That's it. The
15 location, the specific location, I had no knowledge
16 of that.
17 Q So in terms of what address or even
18 how the body was found in terms of on her back or on
19 her side or on her front, you didn't know any of
20 that?
21 A No, sir.
22 Q Was there -- you say you saw it in the
23 newspapers. Did you also see it on TV?
24 A Well, I have to truthfully tell you,
60
1 Mr. Taylor, during that time I was getting beat up
2 and I didn't watch very much TV, especially the news.
3 Q Now, you're saying, "beat up." You
4 mean by the media?
5 A By the media and by some of the
6 activists in this city.
7 Q Now, are you talking about, again,
8 after the little boys were arrested or before?
9 A After the little boys was arrested and
10 really --
11 MR. CROWE: His question is before --
12 THE WITNESS: Before --
13 MR. CROWE: -- the boys were arrested.
14 THE WITNESS: Before I was taking my lumps and
15 hits from the newspaper -- from the TV. So I don't
16 do a lot of watching of TV.
17 BY MR. TAYLOR:
18 Q Were some of the lumps you were taking
19 because the Ryan Harris case was not being solved or
20 hadn't been solved over the next couple of weeks?
21 A Well, that and a number of other
22 things.
23 Q What were the other things other than
24 the Ryan Harris case?
61
1 A People just -- it seemed as if some of
2 my residents didn't think that I was running the
3 police department like it should have been ran.
4 Q Are there any specific examples you
5 can give us about how you were getting beat up other
6 than the Ryan Harris case?
7 A The only thing is every time that I
8 watched TV, it was something negative about Terry
9 Hillard and the Chicago Police Department, you know.
10 Q I see.
11 A And being a new superintendent at that
12 time, you know, it wore on me for a while.
13 Q Okay. So you didn't watch the TV or
14 the newspapers too closely in those weeks, the week
15 or two between the time that Ryan Harris was found
16 and the time that the little boys were arrested,
17 because there was a lot of negative publicity against
18 you and the police department because of that case
19 and other things as well. Is that fair to say?
20 A Um-hum. That's true.
21 Q Okay. Did you have -- however, did
22 someone in News Affairs or your administrative
23 assistant or someone keep you generally informed of
24 what was going on in the media so that you knew what
62
1 kind of criticism was coming down so you could
2 respond to it, from time to time?
3 A Well, we got what we call press
4 releases, press briefings, that we clip out of the
5 newspaper, you know, to sort of give us a short
6 synopsis of what's happening; the Tribune, Sun-Times,
7 Defender, such as that.
8 Q Would you look at those clippings?
9 A From time to time, you know.
10 Q So -- by the way, would someone from
11 News Affairs be at your daily briefings?
12 A Yes, sir. I said that.
13 Q Who was that at the time?
14 A At that time it was Pat Camden.
15 Q Was he director of News Affairs?
16 A He was the acting director.
17 Q Is he director now?
18 A He's the deputy director.
19 Q Okay. Who is the director now?
20 A Dave Baylis.
21 Q At that time he was the acting
22 director --
23 A Right.
24 Q -- so he was number one in command of
63
1 News Affairs; is that right?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q That's part of your staff, right?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q When News Affairs issued information,
6 it would be with your either expressed or tacit
7 approval; is that right?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q All right.
10 A Let's back up here. News Affairs
11 operates and they don't have to -- when they get
12 ready to go and have a press release or something
13 like that, they don't have to get the approval of the
14 superintendent.
15 That's the reason I hired them. They
16 are supposed to be the pros, you know. They're
17 supposed to do what's in the best interest of this
18 police department.
19 Q But they do speak for you and your
20 department, right?
21 A They speak for the department, yes,
22 sir.
23 Q In that sense you delegated the
24 authority or some of the authority to speak for the
64
1 department --
2 A Right.
3 Q -- to News Affairs, right?
4 A Right.
5 Q And if you are in disagreement with
6 something that they say, do you then call it to their
7 attention?
8 A Oh, yes. Definitely.
9 Q Have you done that, from time to time,
10 since you've been the superintendent?
11 A Well, a couple of times, but it hasn't
12 been that many times, you know. It's just like any
13 organization, you know.
14 Q So if there was something you didn't
15 agree with, you would call Camden or whoever in and
16 ask him why he did that and perhaps even put out a
17 release that might counteract what he said?
18 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the question
19 in that there's no foundation for it.
20 THE WITNESS: Well, if they put out something
21 that I didn't agree with, I would bring them in and,
22 you know, give me the reason why this was done, you
23 know.
24 But what you have to realize is I
65
1 might disagree with it, but he might have a reason
2 why it needed to go out, you know. They're the pros
3 at this, not Terry Hillard.
4 BY MR. TAYLOR:
5 Q Is he a civilian or does he have a
6 rank within the department?
7 A He used to be a sworn. He's a
8 civilian now.
9 Q But he used to be a Chicago police
10 officer?
11 A Yes.
12 Q What rank did he attain?
13 A He was a patrolman, but he was the
14 deputy press secretary for almost 11 years.
15 Q Okay. As a patrolman?
16 A As a patrolman. And he was never paid
17 for it.
18 Q You mean he volunteered?
19 MR. CROWE: There was no question pending.
20 THE WITNESS: Yeah, okay.
21 BY MR. TAYLOR:
22 Q So he's loyal to the department, is
23 what you're saying.
24 A No, he's loyal to this city.
66
1 Q Okay. And to the department?
2 A And the citizens of this city.
3 Q Okay. Now, did you at some point --
4 strike that.
5 Are you aware, even though you weren't
6 watching the press that closely during the 12 or 13
7 days between the time that Ryan Harris' body was
8 found and the time that the little boys were charged
9 in this case, were you aware that it was receiving a
10 lot of attention both in the city in general and
11 specifically in Englewood?
12 A Yes, sir.
13 Q And would it be fair to say that it
14 was a significant case here in the city?
15 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
16 question.
17 THE WITNESS: When you say, "significant,"
18 what --
19 BY MR. TAYLOR:
20 Q An important case.
21 A Well, Mr. Taylor, I think all of them
22 are important really. All of them are important.
23 But, you know, this case happened to come out of
24 Englewood, and Englewood being the neighborhood that
67
1 it is, it seems like it gets -- a lot of time it
2 doesn't get its just due. This is an important case.
3 It's like a lot of the cases that we have in
4 Englewood.
5 Q Did it have an added importance
6 because it was a little girl that was victimized in
7 the case?
8 A Well, it's -- when there's a child,
9 it's always got that level, you know, the feeling
10 that you have to solve it.
11 Q Um-hum. During that week or two that
12 there were periodic briefings that included this case
13 in the press that you weren't following that closely
14 but did get some information from, was there any
15 discussion with -- between you and any persons on
16 your staff, whether it be Malone or anyone else,
17 about looking to see whether the Harris case fit into
18 a pattern in Englewood concerning assaults of little
19 girls or young girls?
20 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
21 question. That assumes that there was a pattern.
22 THE WITNESS: Kindly rephrase that for me,
23 would you?
24 BY MR. TAYLOR:
68
1 Q Okay. What I'm asking you is did you
2 have any discussions with Malone or with anyone else
3 during the first couple of weeks before the little
4 boys were arrested concerning whether there might be
5 a pattern that could be located with regard to the
6 Harris case and other cases in Englewood in which
7 young girls had been attacked?
8 A I think --
9 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
10 question.
11 You may answer.
12 THE WITNESS: I had not been micromanaging.
13 You know, that's not my style.
14 BY MR. TAYLOR:
15 Q So you left that up to your
16 subordinates?
17 A I left that up to Deputy Malone, the
18 chief of detectives, the commander of the Detective
19 Division, the lieutenant of Violent Crimes, and the
20 sergeant of that Detective Division out in Area 1.
21 Q Did it occur to you during that
22 couple-week period before the little boys were
23 arrested, given the facts that you had and the
24 experience you did as the chief of detectives, that
69
1 this would be a case to look at with regard to a
2 potential pattern in the Englewood community?
3 A When you say with the experience that
4 I had as the chief of -- I was chief of detectives,
5 but that don't mean that I was qualified to go out
6 and investigate, you know, homicides and rapes
7 because I had never been a detective. You're going
8 to have to be a little more specific.
9 Q Okay.
10 A I appreciate that.
11 Q Well, let me restate the question.
12 Given your knowledge of the workings of the Detective
13 Division that you gleaned from being the chief of
14 it --
15 A Um-hum.
16 Q -- did it occur to you that it would
17 be an appropriate investigative technique to look at
18 the Harris case in light of whether it fit into a
19 preexisting pattern of attacks on young girls in the
20 Englewood community?
21 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the multiple
22 questions.
23 BY MR. TAYLOR:
24 Q You can answer.
70
1 MR. CROWE: If you understand the question.
2 If you don't, you don't.
3 THE WITNESS: Can we do one at a time?
4 MR. TAYLOR: Okay. Well, why don't you read
5 the question back and we'll see where it is.
6 (Record read.)
7 MR. CROWE: I assume that means if he knows,
8 given what his last answer was before that.
9 MR. TAYLOR: Yeah, yeah.
10 MR. CROWE: Okay.
11 THE WITNESS: But I don't think there's
12 anything out there that say that they didn't look at
13 all the options and look and see about the patterns.
14 BY MR. TAYLOR:
15 Q I'm sorry if I'm not clear with my
16 question. I'm not asking whether they may or may not
17 have done that. I'm asking whether it occurred to
18 you that that would be something that should be done.
19 A No.
20 Q Okay.
21 A And I say no for a reason. It is
22 because I wanted -- you know, that was Malone's job,
23 the chief of detectives' job, the commander's job,
24 and the lieutenant and the sergeant's job, you know,
71
1 to decide what strategies, what programs, and what
2 initiatives to go forward with to investigate this
3 case.
4 Q But would you not, in briefings and
5 other conversations with subordinates, if you felt
6 there was an appropriate suggestion or directive to
7 make with regard to a case, you would make it,
8 wouldn't you?
9 A No. And you know the reason why?
10 I've learned over these last -- since I was chief of
11 detectives, that when people of the stature of the
12 superintendent speak, people want to take it as
13 gospel, you know, and there's nothing by being the
14 superintendent of police to say that I know what I'm
15 talking about when it comes down to investigating
16 cases.
17 We need to let those detectives and
18 those folks in the Detective Division who have been
19 tasked with this mission carry out their job. We got
20 one of the best Detective Divisions this country, bar
21 none, and I think that what they do and how they do
22 their job is very credible, and I just don't think
23 that we need to micromanage from this chair right
24 here trying to tell these folks how, when, what, and
72
1 how to do their jobs.
2 Q But it would be fair to say, would it
3 not, that as the superintendent the buck stops with
4 you?
5 A The buck always stops --
6 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
7 question.
8 BY MR. TAYLOR:
9 Q You started to answer.
10 A The buck always stops here.
11 Q Right. So it wouldn't be
12 micromanaging, would it, to intervene if you thought
13 that there was something wrong that was being done by
14 subordinates in the name of the Chicago Police
15 Department?
16 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
17 question. I don't see whether the buck stops here
18 has anything to do with micromanaging.
19 You may answer if you understand the
20 question.
21 THE WITNESS: When you say something is being
22 done wrong, you know --
23 BY MR. TAYLOR:
24 Q Um-hum.
73
1 A -- no one has proven or shown us
2 anything, that anything has been done wrong.
3 Q No, I'm not talking --
4 A That's what you said, Mr. Taylor.
5 Q I'm not -- don't -- I'm not talking
6 about anything specific now. I'm asking you if, in
7 fact, it were called to your attention that something
8 needed to be fixed within the department, you
9 wouldn't stand back, but rather you would act,
10 wouldn't you?
11 A I would --
12 MR. CROWE: I would object to the form of that
13 question.
14 THE WITNESS: I would bring that respective
15 commander -- not commander -- but deputy
16 superintendent in and ask him, you know, can you tell
17 me about this, like I do my press officer. Tell me
18 about this situation.
19 BY MR. TAYLOR:
20 Q Okay. If, in fact, they told you
21 things that appeared to you to be something that
22 needed to be corrected, you would correct it, would
23 you not, as the chief officer of the police
24 department?
74
1 A Well, I think since these three years
2 and two months that I've been here, I don't have to
3 tell my folks what to correct. They are coming to me
4 and telling me how they corrected it, and they are a
5 lot more proactive than I am, you know.
6 Q So you haven't had to act in any
7 particular circumstance to correct any problems
8 within the department?
9 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
10 question.
11 MS. ROSEN: Object to the form.
12 THE WITNESS: You know, I can truthfully say
13 that we have a very dynamite staff here, people who
14 are very proactive and do their job the way it needs
15 to be done.
16 To say that I micromanage, I will
17 never, ever micromanage. That's the reason we have
18 the levels; the deputy superintendent, the chief of
19 detectives, the commanders, the Violent Crimes
20 lieutenant, and those sergeants in the Detective
21 Division.
22 You're talking about three, four, five
23 levels. I'm quite sure that it -- before it reaches
24 me it's going to get solved.
75
1 BY MR. TAYLOR:
2 Q Okay. Now, during those two weeks
3 from the time that Ryan Harris' body was found on
4 July 28th until the 9th of August, which was the date
5 that these little boys were arrested here, did you
6 attend any community meetings in Englewood in which
7 the Ryan Harris case was a topic of discussion?
8 A I think there's a possibility that I
9 did.
10 Q Okay. Do you remember who attended
11 the meeting?
12 MR. CROWE: Who from the community or who from
13 the police department?
14 MR. TAYLOR: Well, whoever he remembers.
15 THE WITNESS: I think there's a possibility
16 of -- I would have to see if Commander Ford --
17 BY MR. TAYLOR:
18 Q That's the 7th District commander?
19 A I don't know who the commander was,
20 the commander from the 7th District was, at that
21 time.
22 Q I believe it was Ford.
23 A Yeah. I would have to see if he
24 attended with me.
76
1 Q Okay. Would it have been at the 2nd
2 District or would it have been out in the community?
3 A Well, the 2nd District is not in the
4 7th District. The 2nd District is at 51st and
5 Wentworth. The 7th District is at 61st and Racine.
6 Q I'm sorry. I meant the 7th District.
7 A It's a possibility it could have been
8 out in the neighborhood or it could have been at one
9 of the churches.
10 Q Do you have a memory of where it was?
11 A No.
12 Q Did people articulate at this meeting
13 concerns about the fact that the Ryan Harris case had
14 not been solved?
15 A Yeah. Yes, they did.
16 Q Okay. And did you assure them as
17 superintendent that everything was being done that
18 could be done with regard to the investigation?
19 A I told them that as the Chicago Police
20 Department that we were moving as fast and as
21 thoroughly as we could in trying to solve this case.
22 Q Now, in the -- do you remember who
23 from the community was present?
24 A Not right offhand, no.
77
1 Q Would it be fair to say that it had
2 become a heater case in the community?
3 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
4 question.
5 THE WITNESS: Well, that term that you used,
6 that's a media term, a heater case, you know. I
7 guess I truthfully have to say in some sense, yes.
8 BY MR. TAYLOR:
9 Q Okay. During those first two weeks
10 before the little boys were charged, was it called to
11 your attention by Malone or anyone else that there
12 were certain suspects that were being looked at with
13 regard to the case?
14 MR. CROWE: This was before the arrest?
15 MR. TAYLOR: Right.
16 THE WITNESS: I don't remember that.
17 BY MR. TAYLOR:
18 Q Do you remember whether you were
19 informed that there were certain adult suspects that
20 were being considered in the case? Again, I'm
21 talking about in the first two weeks.
22 A I don't remember him coming up with
23 any specifics, specific adults. No.
24 Q Now, did you have 24 -- did persons,
78
1 such as Malone, have 24-hour access to you in the
2 sense that they could reach you at any time of the
3 day or night if there was an emergency or some
4 significant information they needed to get to you?
5 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the question
6 and the prefatory remark "such as."
7 THE WITNESS: Almost half the Chicago Police
8 Department got 24-hour access to me.
9 BY MR. TAYLOR:
10 Q That's through your home number and
11 your pager?
12 A Yes, sir, and through Operations
13 command.
14 Q So you would say you're a very
15 accessible superintendent?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Would you get calls from Malone and
18 others in the chain of command, from time to time, to
19 discuss matters that they felt were significant?
20 A Usually if it came out of -- whatever
21 bureau it came out of, that deputy superintendent
22 would reach out for me and call me if he wanted to
23 contact me.
24 Q Now, this A&A sheet indicates that on
79
1 the 8th of August, which was a Saturday, that you
2 were off, but that if you look at the 9th, it appears
3 that you nonetheless worked from 11:00 to 4:00; is
4 that right, if you look at the two sheets together?
5 A If you go back to the 8th of August,
6 you'll look at 1630 to 1930 hours.
7 Q Right. Actually, that's in reference
8 to the 7th of August, isn't it?
9 A Okay.
10 Q Okay. So the next date would be --
11 A The 9th of August.
12 Q -- the 9th. Right. But it says, "4
13 HR, 11 to 15." So is that -- do you know whether you
14 worked on the 9th from 11:00 to 4:00?
15 MS. ROSEN: Three.
16 THE WITNESS: 11:00 to 3:00. That's 1500
17 hours.
18 BY MR. TAYLOR:
19 Q Oh, I'm sorry.
20 A If it's on here, I was.
21 Q Okay. Let's look at the next day
22 which says, "4 HR, 9 August 98, 1000 hours to 1400
23 hours." Do you see that?
24 A Um-hum.
80
1 Q So that would -- I guess I'm making
2 the assumption that the entry on the 9th would be in
3 reference to what you did on the 8th, which would be
4 working 11:00 to 3:00, and then on the 10th is a
5 reference to what you did on the 9th, which would be
6 from 10:00 to 2:00. Do you think that's a fair
7 interpretation of those sheets?
8 A I guess that's a fair interpretation.
9 I'm not a timekeeper.
10 Q Right. But would you normally work
11 three, four hours in the middle of the day on
12 Saturday and Sunday, your off-day?
13 A If I didn't have a drug march or a
14 gang march or some kind of community march or rally,
15 then I would come down to the office and work.
16 Q Okay. Now, on the 8th and 9th of
17 August were you working in your office or do you know
18 if you were out in the community?
19 A Well, I could have been in the office
20 or I could have been outside, you know. It all
21 depends.
22 Q Now, on the 9th of August did you
23 receive any communication from Deputy Superintendent
24 Malone concerning the Ryan Harris case?
81
1 A The 9th of August? What day is that?
2 Q That's a Sunday.
3 A That's a Sunday? To my recollection,
4 if I did receive some communication from Mike Malone,
5 it might have been later on in the night.
6 Q It would have been on the night of the
7 9th, Sunday night?
8 A Yeah, if he would have called me.
9 Q Would it have been at your home or --
10 A Yes, sir.
11 Q Okay. And what do you remember about
12 that call?
13 A Well, like I said, if he was going to
14 call me, he would call me at night. As far as the
15 conversation, you know, you got to realize that I
16 talk to 40, 50, sometimes a hundred people a day. I
17 don't remember all these conversations, especially
18 going back almost what, two, three years.
19 Q Well, do you remember Malone calling
20 you at home and telling you that two little boys had
21 been arrested for the murder of Ryan Harris?
22 A At what -- I don't know if he said
23 arrested or if they are talking to two little boys.
24 I don't know which one he said.
82
1 Q So did he tell you the ages of the
2 little boys?
3 A It's a possibility that he did.
4 Q Do the ages seven and eight sound
5 about right?
6 A Yes, sir.
7 Q And did it surprise you or shock you
8 when you heard this from Malone, that they were
9 talking to or they were charging little boys, two
10 little boys, that young with the murder of Ryan
11 Harris?
12 A You know, when you say shocked, not
13 particularly shocked. You know, I was concerned
14 because it seems as if during this day and age, and
15 especially back then, that offenders were getting
16 younger and younger and younger.
17 Q Okay. So you were concerned when he
18 told you that they either were talking to or were
19 arresting the seven and eight-year-old little boys
20 for the murder of Ryan Harris?
21 A I think, like I said, it's possible,
22 as I remember, that he said they were talking to
23 them.
24 Q Okay. Did he tell you what they --
83
1 what the nature of the talking to them was; in other
2 words, what they were talking to them about?
3 A No, no.
4 Q Did he tell you that they were talking
5 to them as suspects in the Ryan Harris case?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q But you knew enough to be -- what was
8 the word you used -- concerned about such young kids
9 being involved in a case like this, right?
10 A Right.
11 Q So you knew that they were somehow
12 being connected to the murder of Ryan Harris as
13 potential suspects, didn't you?
14 A Well, he said, as I remember -- as I
15 remember, you know, he said that they were talking to
16 them. He never said anything, as I remember, and
17 you're going back a few years, you know, but I don't
18 know anything about suspects or arresting or anything
19 like that.
20 Q Okay. When he called you, though, it
21 was a -- did you ask him any questions about what the
22 details of what they were talking to the children
23 were with regard to the murder of Ryan Harris?
24 A No.
84
1 Q Okay. Did he tell you that evening
2 that the parents or the grandparents of the children
3 were there when they were talking to these kids?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q Did you ask him?
6 A No, sir, and I'll tell you the reason
7 why is because I always --
8 MR. CROWE: There's no question pending.
9 THE WITNESS: Okay.
10 MR. CROWE: He didn't ask you why.
11 THE WITNESS: Okay.
12 MR. TAYLOR: All right. Well, I will. We're
13 all interested here.
14 BY MR. TAYLOR:
15 Q Why did you not?
16 A I don't talk over telephones, you
17 know.
18 Q So you didn't want to go into a lot of
19 detail over the telephone. Is that fair to say?
20 A Well, I don't go into details over the
21 telephone. You know, it's -- I don't micromanage.
22 Q Why don't you go into detail over the
23 telephone? Is there a particular reason?
24 A I don't trust telephones.
85
1 Q Okay. Did you ask Malone who the
2 detectives were who were talking to these kids or
3 questioning these kids?
4 A No, sir.
5 Q Did you know where it was occurring?
6 Did you know it was occurring at Area 1?
7 A If it was occurring -- just me knowing
8 -- being a chief of detectives, knowing it was
9 probably occurring in Area 1 because that's where the
10 crime happened, in Area 1.
11 Q Right. Did you -- after getting the
12 call from Malone, did you either go to Area 1 or make
13 a call down to Area 1 to find out any more
14 information?
15 A No, sir.
16 Q Did you know at that time that
17 Brannigan and Zaborac were working at Area 1?
18 MR. CROWE: You mean during the telephone
19 call?
20 MR. TAYLOR: Yeah, at that time.
21 BY MR. TAYLOR:
22 Q Were you aware that they were
23 supervisors at Area 1?
24 A That they were supervisors in the
86
1 Detective Division at Area 1.
2 Q Yes. You knew that?
3 A Yeah, I knew that they was assigned to
4 Area 1.
5 Q Okay. Did you know whether they were
6 involved in the questioning of the little boys that
7 Malone was telling you about?
8 A No, sir.
9 Q When Malone called, did he tell you
10 the names of the little boys?
11 A No, sir.
12 Q Did you ask him?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q And did you ask him whether the little
15 boys' parents or guardians were present in the Area
16 anywhere? Not necessarily that they were present
17 during the questioning, but were they present there
18 or not?
19 A No, sir.
20 MS. ROSEN: Can we take a quick break?
21 MR. TAYLOR: Sure. I was just about to.
22 (Brief recess.)
23 BY MR. TAYLOR:
24 Q In this phone conversation with Malone
87
1 on the evening of the 9th, did you ask him whether
2 they were going to arrest the little boys?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Okay. And he didn't tell you whether
5 they were or not; is that right?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Did you subsequently that evening
8 either get another call from Malone or make a call to
9 him to find out whether, in fact, they had arrested
10 or charged the little boys --
11 A No.
12 Q -- with the murder of Ryan Harris?
13 A No, sir.
14 Q Did anyone call you, Ivanjack or
15 anyone else, to tell you that?
16 A Not that I remember, no, sir.
17 Q Okay. And the reason that you didn't
18 follow up was because the -- you felt that you didn't
19 want to micromanage this particular case; is that
20 right?
21 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
22 question.
23 BY MR. TAYLOR:
24 Q Is that right?
88
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Okay. Did you learn either later that
3 night or the next morning that, in fact, these little
4 boys that Malone told you about had been charged with
5 the murder of Ryan Harris?
6 MR. CROWE: Object to the form of the
7 question. Charged or arrested?
8 MR. TAYLOR: What was my --
9 MR. CROWE: You said charged.
10 BY MR. TAYLOR:
11 Q Did you learn that they had been
12 arrested for the murder of Ryan Harris?
13 A I believe it was the next morning at
14 the morning meeting, as I remember.
15 Q Okay. Did you hear it on the news
16 media prior to the morning meeting or was the first
17 that you actually heard that they had been arrested
18 was when you got to the morning meeting?
19 A I believe when I got to the morning
20 meeting.
21 Q When you talked to Malone, did you
22 discuss the possibility of arresting the children
23 for -- let me make this clear.
24 When you talked to Malone on the
89
1 evening of the 9th via the phone, did you discuss
2 with him the possibility of arresting the children?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q All right. Did you discuss whether
5 to -- what to charge the children with if they were
6 arrested?
7 A No, sir.
8 MR. CROWE: I'll object to the form of the
9 question. It's not his responsibility to charge.
10 It's the state's attorney's responsibility.
11 BY MR. TAYLOR:
12 Q Did you discuss what offense these
13 children would be arrested for if they were arrested?
14 A No, sir.
15 Q Now, at the briefing on the morning of
16 the 10th, that would have been around 9:00 o'clock in
17 the morning if that was your normal time of having
18 the briefing?
19 A Was that a Monday morning or --
20 Q Right. That would be the 10th.
21 A The 10th. About 9:00 o'clock we
22 probably had -- between 9:00 and 9:10 we would have
23 had the morning meeting.
24 Q Just one more question in terms of
90
1 that conversation on the 9th with Malone. Subsequent
2 to the conversation with Malone in which he told you
3 they had the little boys at Area 1 in connection with
4 the Ryan Harris case, did you do any follow-up
5 whatsoever with regard to the information that Malone
6 gave you?
7 A No, sir.
8 Q On the 10th at the early morning
9 briefing, who besides yourself and Malone was
10 present?
11 A Well, it would be the normal -- it
12 should have been the normal staff who would be there;
13 the first deputy, Deputy Malone, Jeannie Clark, the
14 superintendent's assistant, um, the acting press
15 secretary, the general counsel, the ADS from the
16 Internal Affairs Division, the administrator from
17 OPS, the deputy superintendent of Administrative
18 Services who is John Harris, and the deputy
19 superintendent of Technical Services who would be Jim
20 Whigham.
21 Q Was that during the time that there
22 wasn't -- that Gayle Shines had left the OPS and
23 before Callie Baird had taken over? Was it at that
24 period that --
91
1 A You know, I think Gayle Shines was --
2 this was in '98. Gayle Shines might have still been
3 here.
4 Q Do you remember who from OPS was
5 there, if anyone?
6 A No, sir.
7 Q Okay.
8 A No, sir.
9 Q Now, who was the deputy superintendent
10 in charge of the IAD at that time? Was that Mike
11 Hoke or Risley?
12 A As I remember, it was either -- I
13 believe it was Mike Hoke at the time.
14 Q Okay. Now, at the briefing on the
15 10th did you ask Malone questions about the -- well,
16 let me ask you this.
17 How did it come up that the little
18 boys had been arrested for the murder of Ryan Harris
19 at this briefing on the 10th?
20 A As I remember, we would go around the
21 room and the first deputy would give his report, and
22 then Malone, he gave his report and stated that the
23 two little boys had been, I believe, arrested, as I
24 remember.
92
1 Q For the murder of Ryan Harris?
2 A Uh, yes.
3 Q And were you at all surprised or
4 shocked at that point?
5 A Like I said earlier, not shocked, just
6 concerned, you know.
7 Q And were you concerned because of the
8 young ages of the little boys?
9 A I was concerned because of the young
10 ages of the little boys, yes, sir.
11 Q And did Malone tell you anything
12 beyond the fact that the little boys had been
13 arrested for the murder of Ryan Harris?
14 A He probably mentioned their names, you
15 know, and that's all that I remember because, as I
16 remember, he didn't say that much at the morning
17 meeting.
18 Q Okay. Did he discuss with you what
19 the bases for the arrests were?
20 A No, not him. No.
21 Q Okay. Did someone at this meeting
22 tell you any details about the bases for the arrests
23 of the two little boys?
24 A No, sir.
93
1 Q So at -- and did you inquire of Malone
2 what the bases of the arrests were?
3 MR. CROWE: You mean at that particular
4 meeting?
5 MR. TAYLOR: Yeah, I'm talking now about the
6 morning of the 10th.
7 THE WITNESS: Not at that particular meeting,
8 no
9 BY MR. TAYLOR:
10 Q Again, was this because you didn't
11 want to micromanage the case at that point?
12 A Well, I just felt that the Detective
13 Division, they could handle the situation.
14 Q Well, had you ever heard of children
15 this young being arrested for murder?
16 A Not children this young, but children,
17 you know, young offenders, you know, that committed
18 some very heinous crimes.
19 Q But you're talking about children
20 nine, ten, 11 years old, that area?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q So these kids were younger than that,
23 right?
24 A Yes, sir.
94
1 Q And did it -- did you question in your
2 own mind whether children this young could commit the
3 heinous murder that you knew that the Ryan Harris
4 case was?
|