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1 2 -----------------------------------X 3 In the Matter of 4 The Trusteeship Proceeding 6 Docket Number 03-21T 7 -----------------------------------X 8 11 December 8, 2003 13 14 15 B e f o r e: 16 PETER F. VAIRA, ESQ. 19 INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER. 20 21 22 23 24 25
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1 APPEARANCES: 2 Messrs. THOMAS & ASSOCIATES 6 By: ROBERT M. THOMAS, JR., Esq., of Counsel 7 10 BY: MATTHIAS A. LYDON, Esq., of Counsel 12 Messrs. FARACI & FARACI 15 BY: PETER S. FARACI, Esq., of Counsel 16 17 PRESENT: 18 KATHLEEN M. NAGLE, Esq., Messrs. Vaira & Riley 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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1 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Ladies and 2 gentlemen, let's bring the hearing to order. 3 My name is Peter Vaira, and I'm the Hearing 4 Officer for the Laborers' International Union of North 5 America. My associate lawyer, Miss Kathy Nagle, is 6 sitting beside me. 7 This is a continuation of a hearing we had 8 last month. Representing the International Union is -- 9 MR. THOMAS: Bob Thomas. 10 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Robert 11 Thomas. 12 Representing Local 1001 is Mr. Matthias 13 Lydon. 14 MR. MENDENHALL: Samuel Mendenhall. 15 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Samuel 16 Mendenhall. 17 MR. FARACI: Peter Faraci. 18 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Peter 19 Faraci. 20 All right. Gentlemen and ladies, there is 21 coffee back there, I understand, and if you want, go 22 right ahead. Don't feel constrained to go up while 23 there's -- things are going on. You can go right back 24 there. It doesn't bother me if you're moving back and 25 forth.
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1 Okay. So this is the fourth day of this 2 hearing. And while we have cross examination, am I 3 correct? 4 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Mr. O'Rourke is going to 5 finish his testimony. We finished his direct and Mr. 6 Lydon ask that we defer his cross. 7 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Okay. 8 MR. LYDON: We're ready to proceed. 9 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Come on up, 10 Mr. O'Rourke. 11 Mr. O'Rourke, I believe you were sworn the 12 other day and you're still under oath. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 14 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Lydon? 15 MR. LYDON: Is that microphone okay? 16 THE WITNESS: I believe so, yes. 17 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Can you 18 folks back there hear Mr. O'Rourke back there? 19 Move a little closer, Mr. O'Rourke. 20 MR. LYDON: How is that? 21 THE WITNESS: That's all right. 22 JOHN O'ROURKE, 23 called as a witness herein, having previously been duly 24 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
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1 BY 2 MR. LYDON: 3 Q. Now again your name is John O'Rourke; is that 4 right? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And you've been working as an investigator 7 with the Laborers' International Union of North America 8 since May of 1996. Is that what your testimony was? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And in particular you've been investigating 11 since May of 1996 allegations of organized crime 12 associations within the Chicago area Locals of the 13 Laborers' International Union of North America, 14 correct? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. When did you begin investigation of any 17 allegations of organized crime influence in Local 1001? 18 A. I don't recall the exact time, but it was the 19 investigation and then the hearing of Bruno Caruso and 20 James DiForti and Leo Caruso. 21 Q. So with respect to 1001 itself, it wasn't 22 until the year 2000 that you undertook any 23 investigation of Local 1001? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. That's correct.
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1 A. I don't recall the exact date, but -- 2 Q. But in and around that period of time? 3 A. Yes, sir. That's right, Mr. Lydon. 4 Q. Now how did you go about doing that? 5 Procedurally what did you do? 6 A. With Mr. Caruso? 7 Q. No. Local 1001. Looking into these 8 allegations of organized crime associations within 9 Local 1001, what did you do? 10 A. My primary job was to contact informants and 11 inquire into the association of certain individuals 12 with organized crime. 13 Q. Did you restrict it only to certain 14 individuals within Local 1001? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. Tell us who did you include and how did you 17 go about deciding who to include in the investigation. 18 A. We included the former officers up to and 19 including the current officers. 20 Q. And you started doing that in the year 2000; 21 is that correct? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Eventually there was a complaint filed 24 charging organized crime influence within Local 1001; 25 is that right?
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1 A. The first one was involving Bruno Caruso, 2 yes, sir. 3 Q. That was a disciplinary proceeding against 4 Mr. Caruso. 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And ultimately there was the complaint that's 7 been filed over which we're hearing Trusteeship 8 proceedings today, correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Did you read that complaint? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Did you provide information in that 13 complaint? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: We're 16 talking about today's hearing. 17 MR. LYDON: Today's complaint. The complaint 18 that concerns the Trusteeship for Local 1001. 19 THE WITNESS: Some of the information was 20 supplied by me, yes, sir. 21 BY MR. LYDON: 22 Q. Was anyone else involved in providing that 23 information? 24 A. There may have been. I do not know, sir. 25 The complaint was prepared by the attorneys.
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1 Q. Okay. But who else other than yourself was 2 involved in investigating these allegations of 3 organized crime influence in 1001? 4 A. Mr. Scigalski. 5 Q. And Mr. Scigalski is a person like you who is 6 a former Federal Bureau of Investigation agent? 7 A. Yes, sir, that's correct. 8 Q. In fact you and he have been investigating 9 various Locals in the Chicago area since May of 1996. 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Did Mr. Scigalski provide information that 12 found its way into the complaint? 13 A. Again I'm not sure if he did or not. It was 14 prepared by the attorneys based on information that was 15 supplied to them. 16 Q. Did anyone else provide information other 17 than you and Mr. Scigalski. 18 A. The section having to do with the Fund was 19 amassed by, I believe, other individuals. 20 Q. Well were there any other investigators of 21 organized crime allegations other than you or Mr. 22 Scigalski? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. And when did you begin that -- that 25 investigation, just as to Local 1001, did that precede
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1 -- or start, I should say, in the year 2000? 2 A. Targeting Local 1001? 3 Q. Yes, sir. 4 A. I believe it was 2000. I don't recall the 5 exact beginning date. 6 Q. And over what months -- was this a continuous 7 project between 2000 and the present time? 8 A. I don't remember -- no, it was not -- yes, it 9 was. It was more or less continuous, right. 10 Q. Eventually you indicated you relied upon, 11 principally, as I recall, the testimony of four 12 informants whom you numbered 2, 5, 12 and 17 13 confidential informants, right? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And a man named Granata? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Those were the principal people who provided 18 information to you regarding Local 1001? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Now were you getting information from them 21 beginning in the year 2000? 22 A. Yes, sir, all along. 23 Q. And how did you go about checking names or 24 getting names of people whom you thought might be 25 associated with organized crime?
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1 A. We concentrated primarily on the officers 2 going back to approximately 1969. In addition, we were 3 doing other investigations. For instance, the Chicago 4 District Council in which Bruno Caruso was a member, 5 and the investigation by the Monitor having to do with 6 Tony Solano and having to do with Joey Lombardo, Jr. 7 Q. That was your earlier investigation, correct, 8 of the Chicago District Council you're talking about? 9 A. Well it encompassed individuals that were, 10 for instance, past officers of Local 1001. 11 Q. With respect to current officers of 1001. 12 A. Right, sir. 13 Q. When did that investigation begin? Was that 14 in the year 2000? 15 A. Against Bruno Caruso, yes, not against the 16 others. 17 Q. And the investigation that you've referred to 18 regarding the District Council, that was at an earlier 19 point in time, wasn't it? 20 A. Yes, sir. I believe it was '97. 21 Q. And the '97 investigation related to Bruno 22 Caruso and previous officers of Local 1001? 23 A. Encompassed in the hearings was testimony 24 regarding prior officers. 25 Q. Not current officers.
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1 A. Correct. 2 Q. Now do you have a copy of that complaint? Do 3 you have a copy of the complaint before you? 4 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Today's 5 complaint? 6 MR. LYDON: Today's complaint. 7 MR. THOMAS: I don't think he does. 8 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: We may have 9 one over here. 10 BY MR. LYDON: 11 Q. This is Local 1001 Exhibit 49. 12 A. Right, sir. 13 Q. Just take a look at that and tell me if that 14 isn't a copy of the complaint that we're at hearing 15 over. 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. The question for you is: Does that appear to 18 be the complaint? 19 A. It does, yes, sir. 20 Q. Is this a complete copy of the complaint as 21 signed by Mr. Luskin at the end, right? 22 A. Yes, sir, right. 23 Q. And that's the copy -- and the information 24 that's contained in this complaint regarding organized 25 crime allegations, you provided information and you
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1 investigated concerning those allegations, right? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Now if we look at page 11 of the complaint, 4 paragraph 41 and paragraph 42, do you see there the 5 allegation that of 33 members for whom allegedly 6 improper pension contributions were made, 13 are 7 organized crime associates? Do you see that? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Was that information that you provided? 10 A. I would have to count them. I'm not sure, 11 sir. I was provided with a list of names by the GEB 12 Attorney and then provided information on those 13 individuals. Whether it was 13 or less or more, I'm 14 not sure. 15 Q. The list that you were provided by the -- by 16 whom? 17 A. By the GEB Attorney. 18 Q. Mr. Luskin? 19 A. Individuals under Mr. Luskin. 20 Q. Do you remember who it was? 21 A. It was the attorney that handled it prior to 22 Mr. Bob Thomas. 23 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: The 24 attorney prior to him. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
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1 BY MR. LYDON: 2 Q. But working under Mr. Luskin. And the list 3 that was provided was of 33 people, right? 4 A. I don't recall right now, sir. I would have 5 to count them up. 6 Q. Well the complaint refers to 33 people, 7 correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And do you recall in your previous testimony 10 you said you had a list of 33 names when you testified 11 here -- 12 A. I had a list of names. I never counted them. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. There may have been more than that. Let's 15 see. I have 30 here. 16 Q. 30 there. But do you recall being asked this 17 question and giving this answer on November 12th, the 18 question being: "So of 33 recipients there listed on 19 Exhibit Number 7 -- do you have Exhibit 7 of the GEB 20 before you? 21 I think this is your Exhibit 7, isn't it? 22 A. It's a copy. The number of names I was 23 supplied with was 33 names. 24 Q. 33 names. Okay. 25 So you were given a list of 33 names, and
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1 that's the same number that appears in paragraphs 41 2 and 42 as being persons who received -- for whom 3 Pension contributions and Health and Welfare 4 contributions were made; is that right? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Now, at the time that this complaint was 7 filed, do you see in paragraph 41 that only 13 people 8 are indicated as organized crime associates according 9 to the allegations of the Trustees -- of the complaint 10 for Trusteeship. 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Do you have an explanation as to how you got 13 from that number to the higher number that you 14 testified to on November 12th? 15 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Vaira, I would object to the 16 underlying assumption that Mr. O'Rourke is responsible 17 for paragraph 41. The GEB Attorney's Office drafted 18 the charges. 19 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I realize 20 that, but the question is what he -- he gave a higher 21 number, am I correct? 22 MR. LYDON: Yes, 22. 23 BY MR. LYDON: 24 Q. How do we get from -- my question is: How do 25 we get from 13 to 22 between the time the complaint was
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1 filed and the time when you testified. 2 A. I debriefed the informants about the specific 3 names -- when the complaint was filed, they had certain 4 information that had been supplied previously. After 5 the complaint was filed I began to debrief and zero in 6 on the names specifically with the informants, and the 7 informants identified additional individuals. 8 Q. Well you had the list of 33 names before the 9 complaint was filed, did you not? 10 A. Not all of them, no, sir. 11 Q. Which names didn't you have? 12 A. I don't recall now, to be honest with you, 13 but essentially the same. It was a different list 14 supplied by Mr. Thomas' predecessor. 15 Q. How many people were listed? 16 A. I don't recall, but it was approximately the 17 same. 18 Q. Approximately 33. 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. Did you check those 33 names with the sources 21 of information you've previously identified? 22 A. Not at that time, no, sir, not all of them. 23 Q. Well with whom did you check prior to the 24 filing of the complaint for Trusteeship? 25 A. With whom did I check?
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1 Q. Yes. 2 A. With the informants, but I didn't have all 3 the names. 4 Q. Which informants, all of them? 5 A. All of them, yes, sir. 6 Q. So prior to September of 2003 when this 7 complaint was filed, you did go over a list of 8 approximately 33 names with the same people you've 9 identified as the source of the information regarding 10 organized crime association, right? 11 A. Not all of them, no, sir. I concentrated on 12 the officers and supplied information to the GEB 13 Attorneys on memos regarding what I had. 14 Q. And before you had that list -- when did you 15 get that list of 33 names? 16 A. I don't recall. 17 Q. Was it in 2003? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. So sometime this year -- are you able to 20 approximate when it was in 2003? 21 A. This list was supplied, I believe, right 22 before or right after the complaint was filed, this 23 detailed list, with a request that they be checked with 24 the informants, the names. 25 MR. THOMAS: Just for the record he's
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1 referring to Exhibit 7. 2 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I was just 3 about to ask that. You were referring to 7? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 5 BY MR. LYDON: 6 Q. Now had you done any investigation prior to 7 your taking that list and checking it with the 8 informants. 9 A. Very little. I constantly contact the 10 informants about activities of the officers, what they 11 know about the Laborers' Union 1001, and some of the 12 names have come up before, and I've supplied that 13 information to the GEB Attorney. Not until the 14 complaint was filed was I requested to immediately 15 contact the informants and debrief them extensively 16 concerning the individuals on the list. 17 Q. Well at least for some of the individuals on 18 the list, and we've got 13, there was information 19 contained within the complaint, correct? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And so what you're saying is that there was 22 information about other individuals that you developed 23 after the complaint was filed? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And the list that you had, just so we're
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1 clear, you didn't get that list until shortly before 2 the complaint was filed, the list of 33 names. 3 A. This list, yes, sir, that's correct. Some of 4 the names may have been on the other list, but they 5 were retired individuals or individuals that were 6 deemed not to be immediately appropriate. 7 Q. Well if we look at page 12 of the complaint, 8 that contains names of people who are retired, right? 9 A. What was that again, sir? 10 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Page 12. 11 BY MR. LYDON: 12 Q. Page 12, beginning at the top. Page 12. 13 A. Page 12 of what? 14 Q. Of the complaint. 15 A. Which is tab what? 16 Q. 49. Local 1001 Exhibit 49. Okay? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Page 12. Got it? 19 A. All right. 20 Q. Going to page 12 again. Do you see page 12 21 before you? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And particularly these eight additional 24 supposed or alleged organized crime associates, do you 25 see those list of names?
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1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Those are people no longer with Local 1001? 3 A. That's right, sir. 4 Q. Isn't that correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. That name Briatta, your informants told you 7 about Joseph Briatta; is that right? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. What about the other Briatta names that you 10 testified about on November 12th? Weren't those names 11 brought up at that time? Look at your Exhibit 7. 12 A. No, I understand. 13 Q. Do you have that in front of you too? 14 A. I didn't prepare this, so I don't know the 15 answer to that. They were all indicated that they were 16 all organized crime. All the informants stated that 17 the Briattas were members of organized crime -- 18 associates. 19 Q. So you provided information to the GEB 20 Attorney about all the Briattas prior to the complaint 21 being filed. 22 A. As far as I know, yes, sir. 23 Q. And for reasons that you can't explain, the 24 only name that was suggested was Joseph. 25 A. Yes, sir.
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1 Q. But in any event, you must have checked with 2 your informants, did you not, about persons other than 3 current officers prior to the filing of the complaint, 4 right? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. How did you determine who to include and who 7 not to include? 8 MR. THOMAS: Same objection. 9 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: What's your 10 objection? 11 MR. THOMAS: That Mr. O'Rourke didn't draft 12 the document. 13 MR. LYDON: I'm asking him who he -- 14 MR. THOMAS: He said who to include in the 15 charges, and -- 16 MR. LYDON: That's not the question I asked. 17 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Ask him 18 that question again. I think you're right. I think 19 you have enough basis, but go ahead. 20 MR. LYDON: Could you read that question back 21 please? 22 (Record read.) 23 BY MR. LYDON: 24 Q. In your investigation. 25 A. I included the individuals whose names I was
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1 supplied with. 2 Q. Which were approximately the 33 that we have 3 before you in Exhibit 7. 4 A. Yes, sir, right. 5 Q. All right. 6 And then would it be fair to say that your 7 informants gave you information about some people but 8 not all of the people at that time that they had 9 information on? 10 A. No, sir. They provided the same information 11 whenever I talked to them. 12 Q. So the information you received was 13 consistently about, I believe last time you testified, 14 22 names. 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And you got 22 names right from the 17 beginning. 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And that's the information that you gave to 20 the GEB Attorney, correct? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Now when you asked informants about the 33 23 names on your list and you got a response that a person 24 was "connected" or "with those people" -- I believe 25 that's your testimony, right?
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1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. As to what they said. 3 When you ask informants about the 33 names on 4 your list and you got a response that a person was 5 "connected" or "with those people", did you ask for 6 more specific information? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. For example, did you ask them who as an 9 organized crime person they were associated with? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And in what manner they were associated. Did 12 you ask a question along those lines? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And did you ask whether these individuals on 15 the list were engaged in any illegal activity at any 16 time? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Did you ask when this occurred? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And did you ask when it was that they had 21 these associations? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Did you provide all of that information in 24 your testimony? 25 A. No, sir.
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1 Q. Why not? 2 A. I wasn't asked, sir. 3 Q. Well when you were asked, for example, about 4 -- let's take James Capasso as an example. What you 5 said you said -- the question was asked of you, "What 6 if anything have your informants said about James 7 Capasso?" And your response was, "Informants 2, 5, 12, 8 and Joey Granata all indicated that they knew Jimmy 9 Capasso and that he was associated with the Elmwood 10 Park Crew of the Chicago Mob and that he was an 11 organized crime associate." Do you remember? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Is that all of the specifics that they had 14 for you? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. They didn't provide you with a name of an 17 individual? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. That Elmwood Park Crew, I believe you would 20 testify and have previously testified, was a shifting 21 group. 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. With different individuals coming and going 24 over time, correct? 25 A. Yes, sir.
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1 Q. Did you ask for any particular person within 2 the so-called Elmwood Park Crew? 3 A. Yes, sir. I was told by these informants 4 that Mr. Capasso was closely associated with Rudy 5 Fratto, who is a lieutenant to Joseph Andriacci and 6 that crew and DiFronzo. 7 Q. He's closely associated with Rudy Fratto? 8 A. Yes, and Joseph Andriacci who was associated 9 with the Elmwood Park Crew. 10 Q. Did you find out what, for example, with Mr. 11 Capasso he was to have done in the course of this close 12 association. 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Did you get any information about what the 15 association concerned? 16 A. It concerned his job with the Union and that 17 he was beholding to the Elmwood Park Crew who was 18 associated with organized crime. 19 Q. And was there any time period put on this? 20 A. Several years. No specific -- 21 Q. Did you determine what several years were 22 involved? 23 A. They indicated that for many years that he 24 had been associated with the Elmwood Park Crew. 25 Q. And was it suggested that -- was it stated
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1 that this is a continuing association? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Did they identify any illegal activity that 4 James Capasso was involved in? 5 A. No, sir, they were not aware of any. 6 Q. Any other information that they provided you 7 regarding James Capasso. 8 A. They all recognized the name and stated that 9 he was a Chicago Mob associate with the Elmwood Park 10 Crew. That's what they indicated. 11 Q. And that was something you heard from each of 12 the people you identified? That is to say, 13 confidential informants, 2, 5, 12 and Joey Granata? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. They all said this. 16 Now if we were -- while we're talking about 17 time, if we're talking about Joey Granata, it has to be 18 some time ago, doesn't it? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. It couldn't be continuing to the present 21 because Mr. Granata has been long gone from the scene, 22 correct? 23 A. Yes, sir, since 1991. 24 Q. In 1991 he decided to cooperate and testify 25 for the government, so he severed his associations with
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1 these people; isn't that correct? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. So any information that he would have 4 provided would have been earlier than 1991. 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. What about the rest of them, 2, 5 and 12, 7 anything specific that you recall there? 8 A. Specific other than they identified him as a 9 member -- as an LCN associate. 10 Q. How about Bates again? Anything that they 11 provided you, 2, 5, or 12, in that regard? 12 A. Continuing to the present time. 13 Q. And anything more than the names of Fratto 14 and Andriacci? 15 A. No, sir. One informant indicated Fratto and 16 Andriacci? That's informant number 2. 17 Q. That came from informant number 2. 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Now you've testified, you know, about the 20 information that was provided to you by these various 21 informants. And -- let me back up. 22 You spent 32 years in law enforcement I 23 believe you said; is that correct? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And you had 26 years with the FBI, right?
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1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And you were involved as an FBI agent in 3 several hundred investigations? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. I believe you've testified that you were 6 involved in the convictions of 75 organized crime 7 figures over the course of time? 8 A. Approximately, yes, sir. 9 Q. And in connection with your work in the FBI 10 and in law enforcement for 32 years, some of those 11 investigations involved surveillances, did they not? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Would it be fair to say that you probably 14 have been engaged in hundreds of surveillances? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And some of those investigations involved 17 electronic surveillance, did they not? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. The electronic surveillance included things 20 like wire taps? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Eavesdropping equipment of some sort. 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Cameras sometimes employed? 25 A. Yes, sir.
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1 Q. Pen registers? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And the pen registers, just so we're clear, 4 are registers that would record the telephone numbers? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. What would they record? 7 A. They record the telephone numbers called or 8 incoming. 9 Q. To a targeted phone number. 10 A. That's correct, yes, sir. 11 Q. And you also reviewed phone records in 12 addition to reviewing the records of these pen 13 registers, correct? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Now in all of these surveillances that you 16 conducted, did you ever pick up in any of these 17 surveillances any of the current officers of Local 18 1001? 19 A. Nick Cataudella. 20 Q. And you testified about that last time, 21 right? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Anybody else? 24 A. I believe that's -- as far as I can recall, 25 that's the only person, yes.
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1 Q. And when was that with Mr. Cataudella? 2 A. It was approximately 19 -- early 1980's. He 3 was meeting with various individuals at the Body Shop 4 on Grand, and also he was working, I believe, or had an 5 interest in a bar/restaurant on Grand Avenue. 6 Q. That's additional information now that you 7 didn't testify to about before, right? 8 A. You're probably right, yes, sir. 9 Q. You did mention the Body Shop before. 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. So we've heard about that. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Were you here when he testified? 14 A. No, sir, I was not. 15 Q. Of the current officers of Local 1001, none 16 of them has ever been convicted of a crime, right? 17 A. As far as I know we didn't check criminal 18 arrest records. 19 Q. You didn't check any arrest records? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. During your 32 years of law enforcement were 22 any of these current officers ever a target of a 23 criminal investigation which you were involved? 24 A. No, sir, not that I'm aware of. 25 Q. To your knowledge has there been any public
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1 report, prior to the filing of the complaint for 2 Trusteeship against Local 1001, describing any of the 3 current officers as an associate of organized crime or 4 the Mob or the Outfit? 5 A. I don't believe so, no, sir. 6 Q. Now by comparison, Granata himself was 7 convicted of a crime, was he not? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. More than one? 10 A. I'm not sure. I believe he was, yes. 11 Q. He certainly admitted to many more than one, 12 right? 13 A. He's admitted to many, yes, sir. 14 Q. Is that right? 15 A. Yes, he has. 16 Q. What about informants 2, 5, 12 and 17? 17 A. They've all been convicted of crimes in the 18 past. 19 Q. Okay. And they don't want to share their 20 names. 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. During your 32 years of law enforcement, are 23 you aware of any surveillance report that placed any of 24 the current officers in the presence or having contact 25 with a member of organized crime?
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1 A. I'm not aware of any, no, sir. 2 Q. And by comparison it would be fair to say 3 that you probably have surveillance that would show 4 Granata, Cooley and 2, 5, 12 and 17 all in the presence 5 of organized crime figures, right? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. That's one of the ways that you would 8 corroborate the reliability of the information that you 9 got or that they gave you? Is that the idea? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And when I use that word about surveillance 12 and your answer was that you're not aware of any of the 13 current officers being picked up in any surveillance, 14 I'm talking about, just so we're clear, physical 15 surveillance none, right? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. And nothing like wire taps or overhears or 18 pen registers, nothing connecting any of these 19 individuals that you're aware of, right? 20 A. Not that I'm aware of. They could have been 21 picked up and I wouldn't be aware of it because we 22 concentrated on certain individuals. 23 Q. I'm only asking what you recall and -- 24 A. I don't recall seeing anything on any of 25 those persons.
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1 Q. All right. 2 Now there was a surveillance that you were 3 involved in concerning one of the officers here, 4 correct? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. Weren't you involved in a surveillance -- and 7 it wasn't in connection with your duties as a law 8 enforcement official, it's since you began doing work 9 with the Laborers' Union. Didn't you testify that you 10 were involved in a surveillance of Mr. Gironda? 11 A. I don't recall that, no, sir. 12 Q. Well didn't you -- maybe it was you picked 13 him up. Remember this? You don't remember a 14 surveillance of Mr. Caruso and Mr. Gironda that you 15 testified about? 16 A. Oh, yes. It wasn't me that was involved. It 17 was not myself that was involved in the surveillance. 18 Q. You didn't do the surveillance. 19 A. It was an FBI surveillance as I recall. 20 Q. An FBI surveillance? 21 A. I believe so, yes, sir. 22 Q. You were involved -- when I asked you if you 23 were involved, didn't you have something to do with 24 what prompted the surveillance? 25 A. I don't recall being involved in it, no, sir.
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1 Q. Well Mr. O'Rourke, didn't you testify about 2 certain papers for the District Council of the 3 Laborers' being served on Mr. Caruso? 4 A. Yes, sir, correct. 5 Q. And in the course of those -- that service of 6 papers, there was a surveillance conducted, was there 7 not? 8 A. Yes, there was. That's correct. 9 Q. And that surveillance of Mr. Caruso involved 10 Mr. Gironda, did it not? 11 A. Yes, it did. 12 Q. And the occasion was when you personally 13 served Trusteeship papers for the District Council on 14 Bruno Caruso, correct? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. And at the time you served these papers it 17 was at a golf course? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And present with Mr. Caruso was Mr. Gironda. 20 A. Yes, sir. I had forgotten that, that's 21 correct. 22 Q. Now Mr. Caruso was an officer of Local 1001? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Mr. Gironda at that time was also an officer 25 of 1001?
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1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And so this service of papers also concerned 3 Union business, did it not? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And you didn't physically do the surveillance 6 after the papers were served; is that correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. It was done by others. 9 A. Correct, sir. 10 Q. Including a Peter Dignan I believe is his 11 name. 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. He was a police officer for the Chicago 14 Police? 15 A. Yes, he was. 16 Q. And they followed the two cars, one 17 containing Mr. Bruno Caruso and the other containing 18 Nick Gironda, correct? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And you testified about that on November 21 12th, I believe it was, and probably the day before 22 too, right? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And you said, did you not, that they 25 eventually got to an address in the 200 block of West
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1 25th Place in Chicago, correct? 2 A. I don't recall the specific address, but 3 that's approximately correct, yes, sir. 4 Q. But in the course of your testimony did you 5 make a mistake about what else may have been picked up 6 in that surveillance? Do you know or do you remember? 7 A. I don't recall, no, sir. 8 Q. Well do you recall that you testified that 9 before proceeding to the address on West 25th Place, 10 which incidentally you said was the residence of former 11 Alderman Roti. Do you remember that? 12 A. That's what the officers told me, yes, sir. 13 Q. That's what you were told. 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. But you reported to the Hearing Officer, Mr. 16 Vaira, that before going to that residence they made a 17 stop at Barbara Trucking. Do you remember that? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. The truth is that there was no surveillance 20 that ever put Nick Gironda or Bruno Caruso in Barbara 21 Trucking on June 16th, 1997; isn't that right? 22 A. I was advised that that's where they went 23 first. 24 Q. Who told you that? 25 A. The officers.
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1 Q. You're aware of the fact that they've 2 previously testified in the Caruso proceeding and in 3 the Trusteeship proceeding regarding the District 4 Council? 5 A. I don't recall that, but they may have. 6 Q. Did you ever review the testimony? 7 A. Their testimony, no, sir. 8 Q. Did you ever review the report of the 9 surveillance? 10 A. At the time I may have. I don't recall now, 11 sir. 12 Q. When did you last review it? 13 A. Right before I testified. 14 Q. Right before you testified -- 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. -- in November of 2003. 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 MR. LYDON: Well, I'm going to have to -- I 19 have one copy which I'll have to have it marked. 20 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: We'll wait. 21 We'll wait. We'll wait. Sure. Go ahead. I'll look 22 over your shoulder. 23 MR. THOMAS: Could I see it? 24 BY MR. LYDON: 25 Q. 52. I guess we do have it as an exhibit.
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1 52? See that? Take a look at that. Is that 2 the report of the surveillance that was conducted by 3 one of the officers, looks like Scaramella? 4 A. Yes, sir. Gene Scaramella, right. 5 Q. And it reports on the surveillance of both 6 Gene Scaramella and Sergeant Peter Dignan, right? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Were you present when Sergeant Peter Dignan 9 testified previously about that surveillance? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. That would have been in January of 2000. You 12 were involved, of course, in the Bruno Caruso 13 disciplinary proceeding, right? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And did you ever review the testimony of 16 Peter Dignan who actually was involved in the 17 surveillance? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. Where did you get this information about 20 Barbara Trucking? 21 A. I was advised by the officers that they lost 22 them on Damen Avenue but they found them -- they had 23 stopped at Barbara Trucking. And I recall that clicked 24 with me because I had arrested Fred Bruno Barbara, 25 along with Mr. Scigalski, one of the FBI agents, back
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1 in approximately 1980. 2 Q. Well aside from the clicking with you because 3 you had a previous connection or -- aside from it 4 personally clicking with you, Mr. O'Rourke, that you 5 knew who Barbara was, I want to know who told you that 6 on June 16th, 1997 there was any stop made at Barbara 7 Trucking. 8 A. I was told this by Investigator Tom Bohling, 9 with the Cook County Sheriff's Police, who was a part 10 of that surveillance. 11 Q. Now Bohling's name doesn't appear anywhere on 12 this report of surveillance, does it? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. And you've reviewed this surveillance report 15 previously, have you not? 16 A. I looked at it, yes, sir. 17 Q. Nowhere in this surveillance report is there 18 any mention of Barbara Trucking, is there? 19 A. No, sir. Surveillance was conducted jointly 20 by the Chicago officers and some officers from the Cook 21 County Sheriff's Police, and their names do not appear 22 on it. 23 Q. This -- Scaramella was involved in the 24 surveillance. 25 A. Yes, sir.
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1 Q. And Dignan was involved in the surveillance, 2 right? 3 A. Those two, yes, sir. 4 Q. And Investigators Doyle and Van Horn too, 5 right? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Not one of them ever mentioned Barbara 8 Trucking, correct? 9 A. Not on the report, no, sir. 10 Q. So is there a -- in nowhere -- well is there 11 any other report that you've ever seen? 12 A. I can't recall. There may have been a Cook 13 County Sheriff's Police report, but I don't recall now, 14 sir. But I was advised that they had stopped when they 15 were looking for them at Barbara Trucking, and they 16 were lost until they picked them up pulling onto the 17 street at 25th Street. 18 Q. Are you familiar with what Sergeant Dignan 19 had to say about the surveillance? 20 A. I was not there when he testified, no, sir. 21 Q. Did you talk with Peter Dignan at any time 22 about what happened in that surveillance? 23 A. No, sir. I talked with Tom Bohling from the 24 Cook County Sheriff's Police. 25 Q. What about the surveillance as it continued
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1 to what you believed to be the address of Fred Roti? 2 A. According to Tom Bohling and according to the 3 report, Sergeant Dignan observed both vehicles turning 4 eastbound on 25th Place, double parking their vehicles 5 in front of the residence at 231 West 25th Place, 6 Chicago. 7 Q. Okay. Now, you're reading from the report 8 that we've just referred to; is that right? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Which is our Exhibit 52. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What about the actual testimony. Have you 13 heard any actual testimony in any case about this 14 surveillance and what happened when the vehicles went 15 onto West 25th Place? 16 A. Any testimony? There was some testimony 17 about -- I think there was -- there was an allegation 18 that it was not Fred Roti's home that they went into. 19 Q. What did you read in that respect? 20 A. Pardon me? 21 Q. What did you read in that respect or who 22 reported that to you? 23 A. I think it was a discussion after the 24 testimony as I recall. I don't believe I was present 25 for it.
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1 Q. You're aware, are you not, that there was a 2 common walkway between the home of Fred Roti at 231 3 West 25th Place and 233 West 25th Place where Bruno 4 Caruso's mother resided. 5 A. I recall that was the discussion afterwards, 6 yes, sir. 7 Q. Do you recall that the person who saw or made 8 -- who testified regarding what occurred when the -- 9 when Gironda and Caruso left their vehicles at that 10 common walkway, do you recall that the person who 11 testified was Sergeant Peter Dignan regarding the 12 surveillance? 13 A. No, I was not present, no, sir. 14 Q. My question was: Do you recall that he was 15 the one who testified about what was observed. 16 A. I learned of that, yes, sir. He was the 17 author of the report. 18 Q. And do you recall that he also said that he 19 did not see and no one actually saw either Bruno Caruso 20 or Nick Gironda actually enter or exit either 231 or 21 233 West 25th Place. 22 A. I don't recall that, no, sir. 23 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: That's the 24 testimony. I recall it. 25 MR. LYDON: I have the testimony. We'll
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1 offer it at a later time. 2 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I recall. 3 They didn't see them go in. 4 BY MR. LYDON: 5 Q. And didn't see them come out. 6 A. There was a discussion after the testimony, 7 but I wasn't present so I don't know. 8 Q. And during the first 30 minutes after the two 9 vehicles arrived at that address of 231 or 233 West 10 25th Place, approximately 30 minutes after the arrival 11 Mr. Fred Roti was observed outside at the curb smoking 12 a cigarette; is that correct? 13 A. I don't recall that, no, sir. 14 Q. You don't recall that. And you don't recall 15 that no one was observed with him 30 minutes after the 16 arrival. 17 A. No, sir, I don't. 18 Q. And you don't know anything about that at 19 all. 20 A. I wasn't present for the testimony, so I 21 don't know. 22 Q. So the testimony that you provided on the 23 11th and 12th of November was based on what in total? 24 A. A briefing on the results of the surveillance 25 by the police officers, specifically Tom Bohling from
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1 Cook County Sheriff's Police who was part of the 2 surveillance. 3 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Vaira, just for the record, 4 you've already made findings with respect to that both 5 in the CDC case and in Bruno Caruso. 6 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: The 7 testimony was nobody saw them talking to Fred Roti. 8 Whatever the findings were, the findings were. Go 9 ahead. 10 BY MR. LYDON: 11 Q. And just to sum up. On the Barbara Trucking, 12 are you aware of any official report of any kind, any 13 writing or any testimony, that previous to your 14 testimony in November of this year, placed Nick Gironda 15 and Bruno Caruso at Barbara Trucking in June -- 16 specifically on June 16th, 1997. 17 A. No, sir, I'm not aware of any. 18 Q. And the conversation that you had with the 19 Sheriff's Officer Bohling was when? 20 A. Immediately after the surveillance. 21 Q. And you did not file any written report that 22 included the stop at Barbara Trucking; is that right? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. Am I correct? 25 A. That's correct.
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1 Q. Now while we're on the subject of Bruno 2 Caruso and Nick Gironda, when you testified in November 3 -- on November 11th of 2003, you said, did you not, or 4 testified that all of the informants told you that Nick 5 Gironda replaced Bruno Caruso because he was a member 6 of the 26th Street Crew, and as a way of continuing the 7 influence of that group; is that correct? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. That's what you testified to. 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. Yet it's a fact, is it not, that the person 12 who made the motion to elect or appoint Bruno Caruso -- 13 excuse me. Nick Gironda to replace Bruno Caruso was 14 Nate Gibson; is that right? 15 A. I don't know that, no, sir. 16 Q. Do you have our Exhibit 15 in front of you? 17 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Does he 18 have it? 19 MR. LYDON: He has it. 20 BY MR. LYDON: 21 Q. And 15 is a meeting of Local -- it's the 22 minutes of a meeting of Local 1001 on September 14th of 23 2001; is that right? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. An Emergency Special Executive Board Meeting,
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1 correct? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Do you see, it would be the third page in -- 4 well let me give you a minute. You read those minutes 5 over so that in fairness to see what is involved here 6 is that Mr. Caruso has been expelled. Do you see that 7 on the second page? And then on the third page there 8 was a question of nominations for the office of 9 Business Manager, the office previously held by Bruno 10 Caruso. 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And the motion was made by Nate Gibson, 13 right? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. The fact is that all of your -- none of your 16 informants had any information whatsoever suggesting 17 that Mr. Gibson was in any way connected with organized 18 crime, right? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. That's what you testified to. 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Now let's go to the Capasso allegations if we 23 can. And you've given me some more information this 24 afternoon that -- information that wasn't contained in 25 your testimony previously, right?
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1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And it wasn't in the complaint either, 3 correct? 4 A. That's correct. Yes, sir. 5 Q. The complaint was what number again? 49. Go 6 to 49, the complaint, and I want you to go to page 9. 7 Do you have page 9 in front of you? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And specifically I'm going to direct your 10 attention to the middle of the page regarding James 11 Capasso and paragraph 33 which concerns connection to 12 organized crime. Do you see that? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Now the allegation there is that "Capasso was 15 involved in bookmaking activities for the Chicago 16 Outfit with James "Little Jimmy" Marcello." Is that 17 information that you provided to Mr. Luskin? 18 A. Yes, sir, I believe so. 19 Q. Where did that information come from? 20 A. From the informants. 21 Q. So when you testified a short while ago, this 22 is something you overlooked about what they told you 23 specifically about James Capasso? 24 A. Yes, sir. This was from an old report. 25 Q. Who told you this?
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1 MR. THOMAS: Objection. 2 BY MR. LYDON: 3 Q. Who told you what is contained in paragraph 4 33? 5 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I'll 6 overrule the objection. 7 MR. THOMAS: He clarified it. Thank you. 8 THE WITNESS: I don't recall which of the 9 informants told me that, sir. I believe it was number 10 2, but I'm not sure. 11 BY MR. LYDON: 12 Q. Number 2 is the guy who also told you about 13 Rudy Fratto and Joseph Andriacci? 14 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Did you say 15 that was from an old report you said? 16 THE WITNESS: I received this in the mail and 17 didn't know what had gone into it, but I was providing 18 information all along. 19 BY MR. LYDON: 20 Q. What did you receive in the mail? 21 A. A copy of the complaint. 22 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: What do you 23 mean by "old report"? Old FBI report? 24 THE WITNESS: I had debriefed these 25 informants over the years and had supplied that
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1 information over a period of time to the GEB Attorney. 2 BY MR. LYDON: 3 Q. Beginning when? 4 A. Beginning when we began our investigation. 5 But in this particular case probably sometime in late 6 2002, early 2003. 7 Q. Okay. 8 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: When you 9 say "old report", would that be -- when I was back in 10 the business we used to refer to it as a 92 Report 11 with the Bureau, which is purely intelligence? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 13 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Purely 14 intelligence. 15 BY MR. LYDON: 16 Q. But in any event, somewhere in late 2002 or 17 early 2003, just so we're clear, informant number 2 18 provided you this information regarding James Capasso, 19 this information being the information that's contained 20 in paragraph 33 of the complaint -- 21 A. It's either 2 or 5. I don't recall off the 22 top of my head, sir. 23 Q. What about your notes? Do they tell you? 24 A. I'm sure they would, but I don't have them 25 handy right now.
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1 Q. Where are your notes? 2 A. In the office. 3 Q. So I assume you would be able to overnight, 4 we're going to be continuing tomorrow anyway, go back 5 and gather your notes and find out more about the 6 source of this information, right? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 MR. LYDON: Mr. Hearing Officer, I would ask 9 that he do that. 10 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: They would 11 refresh his recollection? 12 MR. LYDON: Yes. 13 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Would you 14 do that for me please? 15 THE WITNESS: Sure. 16 MR. THOMAS: Just procedurally. If we need 17 to get him on the phone, that may be necessary. He's 18 not available tomorrow. 19 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: We'll get 20 him one way or the other. 21 MR. THOMAS: Right. Exactly. 22 BY MR. LYDON: 23 Q. Now while we're on the subject of this James 24 "Little Jimmy" Marcello, he's described in paragraph 33 25 as "a high-ranking LCN figure who is currently in
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1 federal prison," correct? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Do you agree with that description that he's 4 "a high-ranking LCN figure"? 5 A. Yes, sir, and he's just gotten out of prison. 6 Q. Do you agree with the description that he's 7 "a high-ranking LCN figure"? 8 A. Yes, sir. He was the underboss of the 9 Chicago Mob. 10 Q. For how long was he in federal prison? 11 A. He was convicted with Sam Carlisi and his 12 crew in approximately 1991, '92, and -- 13 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Who are you 14 talking about? 15 THE WITNESS: James Marcello. 16 BY MR. LYDON: 17 Q. And would it be fair to say that James 18 Marcello being described as "a high-ranking LCN 19 figure," was someone, for example, that the Chicago 20 Crime Commission alleged was a member of organized 21 crime, right? 22 A. I assume that they would have, yes, sir. 23 Q. In contrast, the Chicago Crime Commission has 24 never alleged that one of these current officers of 25 Local 1001 is an associate or a member of organized
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1 crime; is that correct? 2 A. I believe that's correct, yes, sir. 3 Q. Now there have been newspaper reports about 4 the connection of Mr. Marcello to organized crime, 5 correct? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. With respect to the specific allegations of 8 paragraph 33, the allegation is that Capasso was 9 involved in bookmaking activities, right? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Bookmaking activities are illegal activities, 12 right? 13 A. Yes, they are. 14 Q. And where were the informants -- one of the 15 informants told you that he was engaged in bookmaking 16 activities. It's either 2 or 5 we've determined, 17 right? 18 A. Yes, sir. And it was in his earlier life. 19 It wasn't recently. 20 Q. And the other informants had no knowledge of 21 his doing anything illegal, right? 22 A. Not specifically as I recall, no, sir. 23 Q. That's what you testified to a short time 24 ago. 25 A. Yes, sir, that's right.
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1 Q. This Rudy Fratto, he's also a person 2 prominently known as an associate or member of 3 organized crime, right? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Joseph Andriacci is also prominently known as 6 a member of organized crime, right? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Joseph Andriacci, some people might accuse 9 him of being currently the head of organized crime in 10 the Chicago area, right? 11 A. Yes, sir, that's true. 12 Q. Now are you aware of any surveillance of any 13 sort -- let me back up. 14 There was no doubt surveillance done over the 15 years by the FBI and by law enforcement people of James 16 Marcello, correct? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Likewise, there has been surveillance of Rudy 19 Fratto? 20 A. I'm not sure if there has been on Fratto. 21 Q. Joseph Andriacci? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. When we talk about Andriacci and Marcello, 24 you're confident, are you not, that given the 25 prominence that they have, that there was a lot of
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1 surveillance conducted by many different law 2 enforcement officers of these individuals over a time. 3 A. Probably, yes, sir. 4 Q. Probably over the last 25 years, there's been 5 surveillance of them, correct? 6 A. Probably, yes, sir. 7 Q. And how about you yourself? In your 32 years 8 of investigating organized crime were you involved in 9 any surveillances of Marcello or Fratto or Andriacci. 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Did you review surveillance reports that 12 concerned any of these individuals. 13 A. Yes, sir, I did. 14 Q. And again we're talking about all forms of 15 surveillance, physical in terms of pictures or cameras, 16 moving camera, pictures, physical reports, wire tap 17 kinds of transcripts. You've seen a lot of that, 18 right? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. In any of that surveillance do you recall 21 ever seeing the name or picking up that James Capasso 22 was in any way associating with these individuals. 23 A. I don't recall that, no, sir. 24 Q. He was never seen socially with any of these 25 individuals so far as you know, right?
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1 A. So as far as I know, yes, sir. 2 Q. And so although you got information from 3 Granata and 2, 5, and 12, there's nothing that you have 4 that corroborates that information except the word of 5 these individuals, right? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. That's correct, is it not? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Now let's go to another individual. How 10 about Robert Chianelli. Do you have the complaint in 11 front of you? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And if you go to page 7, you see the 14 information there? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Where did that information come from? 17 A. Informant number 5. 18 Q. Informant number 5, is he the fellow who 19 referred to Robert Chianelli as "Bobby Chi"? 20 A. Yes, sir. Two informants did that. 21 Q. Two informants referred to him as "Bobby 22 Chi"? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And you testified about that on November 25 12th; is that correct?
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1 A. I believe I did, yes, sir. 2 Q. On November 12th -- let me refresh your 3 recollection. You said one informant referred to him 4 as "Bobby Chi". 5 A. It was two, both 2 -- informant number 2 and 6 informant number 5. 7 Q. So both informants 2 and 5 you're saying now 8 referred to Robert Chianelli as "Bobby Chi". 9 A. Yes, they did, yes, sir. 10 Q. And you do recall that your testimony was 11 that one informant, number 5, referred to him as "Bobby 12 Chi" when you testified on November 12th. 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. When did you have this conversation with 15 number 2? 16 A. The last -- last week. 17 Q. And was it specifically to talk about Robert 18 Chianelli? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. How did the subject "Bobby Chi" come up? 21 A. I asked him -- I wasn't specifically about 22 Chianelli, but I was going through the names again, and 23 I said, "Did you know any other names for Chianelli," 24 and he said, "Bobby Chi", which was the same as the 25 other informant said.
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1 Q. And this procedure, when you're going through 2 the names again, basically you're taking a list of 3 names and you're asking him, "What about this guy? 4 What about this guy?" Right? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. How many times have you gone over that list 7 with these informants? 8 A. Several times. 9 Q. What's several? 10 A. I don't recall exactly. I usually try and do 11 it whenever I see them. 12 Q. And evidently each time you go and ask them 13 about these names again and again and again, you get 14 more information, is that it? 15 A. Sometimes, not always. 16 Q. At least in this instance you claim you got 17 additional information? 18 A. I got additional information that he knew him 19 also as "Bobby Chi", yes, sir. 20 Q. What else did he tell you about him other 21 than "Bobby Chi", number 2? 22 A. He reiterated what he had previously said. 23 Q. What did he previously say? 24 A. That he knew him as a member of organized 25 crime.
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1 Q. As a member of organized crime now. 2 A. An associate. 3 Q. Which was it? 4 A. An associate. 5 Q. What specifically did he tell you about him? 6 A. That he was affiliated with the Elmwood Park 7 Crew. 8 Q. Who in the Elmwood Park Crew? 9 A. Rudy Fratto. 10 Q. Anybody else? 11 A. That's all I recall, sir. 12 Q. Incidentally, what did he say his association 13 was with Rudy Fratto? What did he do with Rudy Fratto? 14 A. Just that he was an associate of his. 15 Q. Did he claim that he engaged in any illegal 16 activities with Mr. Fratto? 17 A. Not specifically, no, sir. 18 Q. What kinds of activities -- illegal 19 activities is Mr. Fratto associated with? 20 A. Bookmaking, loan sharking. He's a lieutenant 21 to Joe Andriacci. 22 Q. And I take it that Mr. Andriacci is involved 23 in the same activities then. 24 A. Well he's the overseer or the boss. They 25 report to him.
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1 Q. Okay. 2 When you were talking about James Capasso and 3 said that he was closely associated with Rudy Fratto 4 and Joseph Andriacci, that number 2 said this, was that 5 also related to bookmaking and loan sharking with 6 regard to James Capasso? 7 A. Chianelli? 8 Q. No. Capasso. 9 A. Excuse me. Early in his career, yes, sir. 10 They said they knew him. 11 Q. When is early in his career? 12 A. When he was younger and not in a position as 13 Executive Director of the City Pension Fund. 14 Q. How much earlier? Did you ask him about |