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1 2 -----------------------------------X 3 In the Matter of 4 The Trusteeship Proceeding 6 Docket Number 03-21T 7 -----------------------------------X 8 11 December 8, 2003 13 14 15 B e f o r e: 16 PETER F. VAIRA, ESQ. 19 INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER. 20 21 22 23 24 25
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1 APPEARANCES: 2 Messrs. THOMAS & ASSOCIATES 6 By: ROBERT M. THOMAS, JR., Esq., of Counsel 7 10 BY: MATTHIAS A. LYDON, Esq., of Counsel 12 Messrs. FARACI & FARACI 15 BY: PETER S. FARACI, Esq., of Counsel 16 17 PRESENT: 18 KATHLEEN M. NAGLE, Esq., Messrs. Vaira & Riley 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
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1 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Ladies and 2 gentlemen, let's bring the hearing to order. 3 My name is Peter Vaira, and I'm the Hearing 4 Officer for the Laborers' International Union of North 5 America. My associate lawyer, Miss Kathy Nagle, is 6 sitting beside me. 7 This is a continuation of a hearing we had 8 last month. Representing the International Union is -- 9 MR. THOMAS: Bob Thomas. 10 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Robert 11 Thomas. 12 Representing Local 1001 is Mr. Matthias 13 Lydon. 14 MR. MENDENHALL: Samuel Mendenhall. 15 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Samuel 16 Mendenhall. 17 MR. FARACI: Peter Faraci. 18 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Peter 19 Faraci. 20 All right. Gentlemen and ladies, there is 21 coffee back there, I understand, and if you want, go 22 right ahead. Don't feel constrained to go up while 23 there's -- things are going on. You can go right back 24 there. It doesn't bother me if you're moving back and 25 forth.
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1 Okay. So this is the fourth day of this 2 hearing. And while we have cross examination, am I 3 correct? 4 MR. THOMAS: Yes. Mr. O'Rourke is going to 5 finish his testimony. We finished his direct and Mr. 6 Lydon ask that we defer his cross. 7 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Okay. 8 MR. LYDON: We're ready to proceed. 9 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Come on up, 10 Mr. O'Rourke. 11 Mr. O'Rourke, I believe you were sworn the 12 other day and you're still under oath. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 14 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Lydon? 15 MR. LYDON: Is that microphone okay? 16 THE WITNESS: I believe so, yes. 17 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Can you 18 folks back there hear Mr. O'Rourke back there? 19 Move a little closer, Mr. O'Rourke. 20 MR. LYDON: How is that? 21 THE WITNESS: That's all right. 22 JOHN O'ROURKE, 23 called as a witness herein, having previously been duly 24 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
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1 BY 2 MR. LYDON: 3 Q. Now again your name is John O'Rourke; is that 4 right? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And you've been working as an investigator 7 with the Laborers' International Union of North America 8 since May of 1996. Is that what your testimony was? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. And in particular you've been investigating 11 since May of 1996 allegations of organized crime 12 associations within the Chicago area Locals of the 13 Laborers' International Union of North America, 14 correct? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. When did you begin investigation of any 17 allegations of organized crime influence in Local 1001? 18 A. I don't recall the exact time, but it was the 19 investigation and then the hearing of Bruno Caruso and 20 James DiForti and Leo Caruso. 21 Q. So with respect to 1001 itself, it wasn't 22 until the year 2000 that you undertook any 23 investigation of Local 1001? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. That's correct.
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1 A. I don't recall the exact date, but -- 2 Q. But in and around that period of time? 3 A. Yes, sir. That's right, Mr. Lydon. 4 Q. Now how did you go about doing that? 5 Procedurally what did you do? 6 A. With Mr. Caruso? 7 Q. No. Local 1001. Looking into these 8 allegations of organized crime associations within 9 Local 1001, what did you do? 10 A. My primary job was to contact informants and 11 inquire into the association of certain individuals 12 with organized crime. 13 Q. Did you restrict it only to certain 14 individuals within Local 1001? 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. Tell us who did you include and how did you 17 go about deciding who to include in the investigation. 18 A. We included the former officers up to and 19 including the current officers. 20 Q. And you started doing that in the year 2000; 21 is that correct? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Eventually there was a complaint filed 24 charging organized crime influence within Local 1001; 25 is that right?
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1 A. The first one was involving Bruno Caruso, 2 yes, sir. 3 Q. That was a disciplinary proceeding against 4 Mr. Caruso. 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. And ultimately there was the complaint that's 7 been filed over which we're hearing Trusteeship 8 proceedings today, correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. Did you read that complaint? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Did you provide information in that 13 complaint? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: We're 16 talking about today's hearing. 17 MR. LYDON: Today's complaint. The complaint 18 that concerns the Trusteeship for Local 1001. 19 THE WITNESS: Some of the information was 20 supplied by me, yes, sir. 21 BY MR. LYDON: 22 Q. Was anyone else involved in providing that 23 information? 24 A. There may have been. I do not know, sir. 25 The complaint was prepared by the attorneys.
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1 Q. Okay. But who else other than yourself was 2 involved in investigating these allegations of 3 organized crime influence in 1001? 4 A. Mr. Scigalski. 5 Q. And Mr. Scigalski is a person like you who is 6 a former Federal Bureau of Investigation agent? 7 A. Yes, sir, that's correct. 8 Q. In fact you and he have been investigating 9 various Locals in the Chicago area since May of 1996. 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Did Mr. Scigalski provide information that 12 found its way into the complaint? 13 A. Again I'm not sure if he did or not. It was 14 prepared by the attorneys based on information that was 15 supplied to them. 16 Q. Did anyone else provide information other 17 than you and Mr. Scigalski. 18 A. The section having to do with the Fund was 19 amassed by, I believe, other individuals. 20 Q. Well were there any other investigators of 21 organized crime allegations other than you or Mr. 22 Scigalski? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. And when did you begin that -- that 25 investigation, just as to Local 1001, did that precede
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1 -- or start, I should say, in the year 2000? 2 A. Targeting Local 1001? 3 Q. Yes, sir. 4 A. I believe it was 2000. I don't recall the 5 exact beginning date. 6 Q. And over what months -- was this a continuous 7 project between 2000 and the present time? 8 A. I don't remember -- no, it was not -- yes, it 9 was. It was more or less continuous, right. 10 Q. Eventually you indicated you relied upon, 11 principally, as I recall, the testimony of four 12 informants whom you numbered 2, 5, 12 and 17 13 confidential informants, right? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And a man named Granata? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Those were the principal people who provided 18 information to you regarding Local 1001? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Now were you getting information from them 21 beginning in the year 2000? 22 A. Yes, sir, all along. 23 Q. And how did you go about checking names or 24 getting names of people whom you thought might be 25 associated with organized crime?
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1 A. We concentrated primarily on the officers 2 going back to approximately 1969. In addition, we were 3 doing other investigations. For instance, the Chicago 4 District Council in which Bruno Caruso was a member, 5 and the investigation by the Monitor having to do with 6 Tony Solano and having to do with Joey Lombardo, Jr. 7 Q. That was your earlier investigation, correct, 8 of the Chicago District Council you're talking about? 9 A. Well it encompassed individuals that were, 10 for instance, past officers of Local 1001. 11 Q. With respect to current officers of 1001. 12 A. Right, sir. 13 Q. When did that investigation begin? Was that 14 in the year 2000? 15 A. Against Bruno Caruso, yes, not against the 16 others. 17 Q. And the investigation that you've referred to 18 regarding the District Council, that was at an earlier 19 point in time, wasn't it? 20 A. Yes, sir. I believe it was '97. 21 Q. And the '97 investigation related to Bruno 22 Caruso and previous officers of Local 1001? 23 A. Encompassed in the hearings was testimony 24 regarding prior officers. 25 Q. Not current officers.
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1 A. Correct. 2 Q. Now do you have a copy of that complaint? Do 3 you have a copy of the complaint before you? 4 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Today's 5 complaint? 6 MR. LYDON: Today's complaint. 7 MR. THOMAS: I don't think he does. 8 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: We may have 9 one over here. 10 BY MR. LYDON: 11 Q. This is Local 1001 Exhibit 49. 12 A. Right, sir. 13 Q. Just take a look at that and tell me if that 14 isn't a copy of the complaint that we're at hearing 15 over. 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. The question for you is: Does that appear to 18 be the complaint? 19 A. It does, yes, sir. 20 Q. Is this a complete copy of the complaint as 21 signed by Mr. Luskin at the end, right? 22 A. Yes, sir, right. 23 Q. And that's the copy -- and the information 24 that's contained in this complaint regarding organized 25 crime allegations, you provided information and you
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1 investigated concerning those allegations, right? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Now if we look at page 11 of the complaint, 4 paragraph 41 and paragraph 42, do you see there the 5 allegation that of 33 members for whom allegedly 6 improper pension contributions were made, 13 are 7 organized crime associates? Do you see that? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. Was that information that you provided? 10 A. I would have to count them. I'm not sure, 11 sir. I was provided with a list of names by the GEB 12 Attorney and then provided information on those 13 individuals. Whether it was 13 or less or more, I'm 14 not sure. 15 Q. The list that you were provided by the -- by 16 whom? 17 A. By the GEB Attorney. 18 Q. Mr. Luskin? 19 A. Individuals under Mr. Luskin. 20 Q. Do you remember who it was? 21 A. It was the attorney that handled it prior to 22 Mr. Bob Thomas. 23 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: The 24 attorney prior to him. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
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1 BY MR. LYDON: 2 Q. But working under Mr. Luskin. And the list 3 that was provided was of 33 people, right? 4 A. I don't recall right now, sir. I would have 5 to count them up. 6 Q. Well the complaint refers to 33 people, 7 correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And do you recall in your previous testimony 10 you said you had a list of 33 names when you testified 11 here -- 12 A. I had a list of names. I never counted them. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. There may have been more than that. Let's 15 see. I have 30 here. 16 Q. 30 there. But do you recall being asked this 17 question and giving this answer on November 12th, the 18 question being: "So of 33 recipients there listed on 19 Exhibit Number 7 -- do you have Exhibit 7 of the GEB 20 before you? 21 I think this is your Exhibit 7, isn't it? 22 A. It's a copy. The number of names I was 23 supplied with was 33 names. 24 Q. 33 names. Okay. 25 So you were given a list of 33 names, and
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1 that's the same number that appears in paragraphs 41 2 and 42 as being persons who received -- for whom 3 Pension contributions and Health and Welfare 4 contributions were made; is that right? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Now, at the time that this complaint was 7 filed, do you see in paragraph 41 that only 13 people 8 are indicated as organized crime associates according 9 to the allegations of the Trustees -- of the complaint 10 for Trusteeship. 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Do you have an explanation as to how you got 13 from that number to the higher number that you 14 testified to on November 12th? 15 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Vaira, I would object to the 16 underlying assumption that Mr. O'Rourke is responsible 17 for paragraph 41. The GEB Attorney's Office drafted 18 the charges. 19 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I realize 20 that, but the question is what he -- he gave a higher 21 number, am I correct? 22 MR. LYDON: Yes, 22. 23 BY MR. LYDON: 24 Q. How do we get from -- my question is: How do 25 we get from 13 to 22 between the time the complaint was
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1 filed and the time when you testified. 2 A. I debriefed the informants about the specific 3 names -- when the complaint was filed, they had certain 4 information that had been supplied previously. After 5 the complaint was filed I began to debrief and zero in 6 on the names specifically with the informants, and the 7 informants identified additional individuals. 8 Q. Well you had the list of 33 names before the 9 complaint was filed, did you not? 10 A. Not all of them, no, sir. 11 Q. Which names didn't you have? 12 A. I don't recall now, to be honest with you, 13 but essentially the same. It was a different list 14 supplied by Mr. Thomas' predecessor. 15 Q. How many people were listed? 16 A. I don't recall, but it was approximately the 17 same. 18 Q. Approximately 33. 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. Did you check those 33 names with the sources 21 of information you've previously identified? 22 A. Not at that time, no, sir, not all of them. 23 Q. Well with whom did you check prior to the 24 filing of the complaint for Trusteeship? 25 A. With whom did I check?
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1 Q. Yes. 2 A. With the informants, but I didn't have all 3 the names. 4 Q. Which informants, all of them? 5 A. All of them, yes, sir. 6 Q. So prior to September of 2003 when this 7 complaint was filed, you did go over a list of 8 approximately 33 names with the same people you've 9 identified as the source of the information regarding 10 organized crime association, right? 11 A. Not all of them, no, sir. I concentrated on 12 the officers and supplied information to the GEB 13 Attorneys on memos regarding what I had. 14 Q. And before you had that list -- when did you 15 get that list of 33 names? 16 A. I don't recall. 17 Q. Was it in 2003? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. So sometime this year -- are you able to 20 approximate when it was in 2003? 21 A. This list was supplied, I believe, right 22 before or right after the complaint was filed, this 23 detailed list, with a request that they be checked with 24 the informants, the names. 25 MR. THOMAS: Just for the record he's
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1 referring to Exhibit 7. 2 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I was just 3 about to ask that. You were referring to 7? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 5 BY MR. LYDON: 6 Q. Now had you done any investigation prior to 7 your taking that list and checking it with the 8 informants. 9 A. Very little. I constantly contact the 10 informants about activities of the officers, what they 11 know about the Laborers' Union 1001, and some of the 12 names have come up before, and I've supplied that 13 information to the GEB Attorney. Not until the 14 complaint was filed was I requested to immediately 15 contact the informants and debrief them extensively 16 concerning the individuals on the list. 17 Q. Well at least for some of the individuals on 18 the list, and we've got 13, there was information 19 contained within the complaint, correct? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And so what you're saying is that there was 22 information about other individuals that you developed 23 after the complaint was filed? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And the list that you had, just so we're
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1 clear, you didn't get that list until shortly before 2 the complaint was filed, the list of 33 names. 3 A. This list, yes, sir, that's correct. Some of 4 the names may have been on the other list, but they 5 were retired individuals or individuals that were 6 deemed not to be immediately appropriate. 7 Q. Well if we look at page 12 of the complaint, 8 that contains names of people who are retired, right? 9 A. What was that again, sir? 10 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Page 12. 11 BY MR. LYDON: 12 Q. Page 12, beginning at the top. Page 12. 13 A. Page 12 of what? 14 Q. Of the complaint. 15 A. Which is tab what? 16 Q. 49. Local 1001 Exhibit 49. Okay? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Page 12. Got it? 19 A. All right. 20 Q. Going to page 12 again. Do you see page 12 21 before you? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And particularly these eight additional 24 supposed or alleged organized crime associates, do you 25 see those list of names?
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1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Those are people no longer with Local 1001? 3 A. That's right, sir. 4 Q. Isn't that correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. That name Briatta, your informants told you 7 about Joseph Briatta; is that right? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. What about the other Briatta names that you 10 testified about on November 12th? Weren't those names 11 brought up at that time? Look at your Exhibit 7. 12 A. No, I understand. 13 Q. Do you have that in front of you too? 14 A. I didn't prepare this, so I don't know the 15 answer to that. They were all indicated that they were 16 all organized crime. All the informants stated that 17 the Briattas were members of organized crime -- 18 associates. 19 Q. So you provided information to the GEB 20 Attorney about all the Briattas prior to the complaint 21 being filed. 22 A. As far as I know, yes, sir. 23 Q. And for reasons that you can't explain, the 24 only name that was suggested was Joseph. 25 A. Yes, sir.
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1 Q. But in any event, you must have checked with 2 your informants, did you not, about persons other than 3 current officers prior to the filing of the complaint, 4 right? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. How did you determine who to include and who 7 not to include? 8 MR. THOMAS: Same objection. 9 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: What's your 10 objection? 11 MR. THOMAS: That Mr. O'Rourke didn't draft 12 the document. 13 MR. LYDON: I'm asking him who he -- 14 MR. THOMAS: He said who to include in the 15 charges, and -- 16 MR. LYDON: That's not the question I asked. 17 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Ask him 18 that question again. I think you're right. I think 19 you have enough basis, but go ahead. 20 MR. LYDON: Could you read that question back 21 please? 22 (Record read.) 23 BY MR. LYDON: 24 Q. In your investigation. 25 A. I included the individuals whose names I was
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1 supplied with. 2 Q. Which were approximately the 33 that we have 3 before you in Exhibit 7. 4 A. Yes, sir, right. 5 Q. All right. 6 And then would it be fair to say that your 7 informants gave you information about some people but 8 not all of the people at that time that they had 9 information on? 10 A. No, sir. They provided the same information 11 whenever I talked to them. 12 Q. So the information you received was 13 consistently about, I believe last time you testified, 14 22 names. 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And you got 22 names right from the 17 beginning. 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And that's the information that you gave to 20 the GEB Attorney, correct? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Now when you asked informants about the 33 23 names on your list and you got a response that a person 24 was "connected" or "with those people" -- I believe 25 that's your testimony, right?
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1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. As to what they said. 3 When you ask informants about the 33 names on 4 your list and you got a response that a person was 5 "connected" or "with those people", did you ask for 6 more specific information? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. For example, did you ask them who as an 9 organized crime person they were associated with? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And in what manner they were associated. Did 12 you ask a question along those lines? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. And did you ask whether these individuals on 15 the list were engaged in any illegal activity at any 16 time? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Did you ask when this occurred? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And did you ask when it was that they had 21 these associations? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Did you provide all of that information in 24 your testimony? 25 A. No, sir.
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1 Q. Why not? 2 A. I wasn't asked, sir. 3 Q. Well when you were asked, for example, about 4 -- let's take James Capasso as an example. What you 5 said you said -- the question was asked of you, "What 6 if anything have your informants said about James 7 Capasso?" And your response was, "Informants 2, 5, 12, 8 and Joey Granata all indicated that they knew Jimmy 9 Capasso and that he was associated with the Elmwood 10 Park Crew of the Chicago Mob and that he was an 11 organized crime associate." Do you remember? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Is that all of the specifics that they had 14 for you? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. They didn't provide you with a name of an 17 individual? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. That Elmwood Park Crew, I believe you would 20 testify and have previously testified, was a shifting 21 group. 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. With different individuals coming and going 24 over time, correct? 25 A. Yes, sir.
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1 Q. Did you ask for any particular person within 2 the so-called Elmwood Park Crew? 3 A. Yes, sir. I was told by these informants 4 that Mr. Capasso was closely associated with Rudy 5 Fratto, who is a lieutenant to Joseph Andriacci and 6 that crew and DiFronzo. 7 Q. He's closely associated with Rudy Fratto? 8 A. Yes, and Joseph Andriacci who was associated 9 with the Elmwood Park Crew. 10 Q. Did you find out what, for example, with Mr. 11 Capasso he was to have done in the course of this close 12 association. 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. Did you get any information about what the 15 association concerned? 16 A. It concerned his job with the Union and that 17 he was beholding to the Elmwood Park Crew who was 18 associated with organized crime. 19 Q. And was there any time period put on this? 20 A. Several years. No specific -- 21 Q. Did you determine what several years were 22 involved? 23 A. They indicated that for many years that he 24 had been associated with the Elmwood Park Crew. 25 Q. And was it suggested that -- was it stated
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1 that this is a continuing association? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Did they identify any illegal activity that 4 James Capasso was involved in? 5 A. No, sir, they were not aware of any. 6 Q. Any other information that they provided you 7 regarding James Capasso. 8 A. They all recognized the name and stated that 9 he was a Chicago Mob associate with the Elmwood Park 10 Crew. That's what they indicated. 11 Q. And that was something you heard from each of 12 the people you identified? That is to say, 13 confidential informants, 2, 5, 12 and Joey Granata? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. They all said this. 16 Now if we were -- while we're talking about 17 time, if we're talking about Joey Granata, it has to be 18 some time ago, doesn't it? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. It couldn't be continuing to the present 21 because Mr. Granata has been long gone from the scene, 22 correct? 23 A. Yes, sir, since 1991. 24 Q. In 1991 he decided to cooperate and testify 25 for the government, so he severed his associations with
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1 these people; isn't that correct? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. So any information that he would have 4 provided would have been earlier than 1991. 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. What about the rest of them, 2, 5 and 12, 7 anything specific that you recall there? 8 A. Specific other than they identified him as a 9 member -- as an LCN associate. 10 Q. How about Bates again? Anything that they 11 provided you, 2, 5, or 12, in that regard? 12 A. Continuing to the present time. 13 Q. And anything more than the names of Fratto 14 and Andriacci? 15 A. No, sir. One informant indicated Fratto and 16 Andriacci? That's informant number 2. 17 Q. That came from informant number 2. 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Now you've testified, you know, about the 20 information that was provided to you by these various 21 informants. And -- let me back up. 22 You spent 32 years in law enforcement I 23 believe you said; is that correct? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. And you had 26 years with the FBI, right?
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1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And you were involved as an FBI agent in 3 several hundred investigations? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. I believe you've testified that you were 6 involved in the convictions of 75 organized crime 7 figures over the course of time? 8 A. Approximately, yes, sir. 9 Q. And in connection with your work in the FBI 10 and in law enforcement for 32 years, some of those 11 investigations involved surveillances, did they not? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Would it be fair to say that you probably 14 have been engaged in hundreds of surveillances? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. And some of those investigations involved 17 electronic surveillance, did they not? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. The electronic surveillance included things 20 like wire taps? 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Eavesdropping equipment of some sort. 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Cameras sometimes employed? 25 A. Yes, sir.
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1 Q. Pen registers? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. And the pen registers, just so we're clear, 4 are registers that would record the telephone numbers? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. What would they record? 7 A. They record the telephone numbers called or 8 incoming. 9 Q. To a targeted phone number. 10 A. That's correct, yes, sir. 11 Q. And you also reviewed phone records in 12 addition to reviewing the records of these pen 13 registers, correct? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. Now in all of these surveillances that you 16 conducted, did you ever pick up in any of these 17 surveillances any of the current officers of Local 18 1001? 19 A. Nick Cataudella. 20 Q. And you testified about that last time, 21 right? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Anybody else? 24 A. I believe that's -- as far as I can recall, 25 that's the only person, yes.
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1 Q. And when was that with Mr. Cataudella? 2 A. It was approximately 19 -- early 1980's. He 3 was meeting with various individuals at the Body Shop 4 on Grand, and also he was working, I believe, or had an 5 interest in a bar/restaurant on Grand Avenue. 6 Q. That's additional information now that you 7 didn't testify to about before, right? 8 A. You're probably right, yes, sir. 9 Q. You did mention the Body Shop before. 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. So we've heard about that. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Were you here when he testified? 14 A. No, sir, I was not. 15 Q. Of the current officers of Local 1001, none 16 of them has ever been convicted of a crime, right? 17 A. As far as I know we didn't check criminal 18 arrest records. 19 Q. You didn't check any arrest records? 20 A. No, sir. 21 Q. During your 32 years of law enforcement were 22 any of these current officers ever a target of a 23 criminal investigation which you were involved? 24 A. No, sir, not that I'm aware of. 25 Q. To your knowledge has there been any public
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1 report, prior to the filing of the complaint for 2 Trusteeship against Local 1001, describing any of the 3 current officers as an associate of organized crime or 4 the Mob or the Outfit? 5 A. I don't believe so, no, sir. 6 Q. Now by comparison, Granata himself was 7 convicted of a crime, was he not? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. More than one? 10 A. I'm not sure. I believe he was, yes. 11 Q. He certainly admitted to many more than one, 12 right? 13 A. He's admitted to many, yes, sir. 14 Q. Is that right? 15 A. Yes, he has. 16 Q. What about informants 2, 5, 12 and 17? 17 A. They've all been convicted of crimes in the 18 past. 19 Q. Okay. And they don't want to share their 20 names. 21 A. No, sir. 22 Q. During your 32 years of law enforcement, are 23 you aware of any surveillance report that placed any of 24 the current officers in the presence or having contact 25 with a member of organized crime?
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1 A. I'm not aware of any, no, sir. 2 Q. And by comparison it would be fair to say 3 that you probably have surveillance that would show 4 Granata, Cooley and 2, 5, 12 and 17 all in the presence 5 of organized crime figures, right? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. That's one of the ways that you would 8 corroborate the reliability of the information that you 9 got or that they gave you? Is that the idea? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. And when I use that word about surveillance 12 and your answer was that you're not aware of any of the 13 current officers being picked up in any surveillance, 14 I'm talking about, just so we're clear, physical 15 surveillance none, right? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. And nothing like wire taps or overhears or 18 pen registers, nothing connecting any of these 19 individuals that you're aware of, right? 20 A. Not that I'm aware of. They could have been 21 picked up and I wouldn't be aware of it because we 22 concentrated on certain individuals. 23 Q. I'm only asking what you recall and -- 24 A. I don't recall seeing anything on any of 25 those persons.
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1 Q. All right. 2 Now there was a surveillance that you were 3 involved in concerning one of the officers here, 4 correct? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. Weren't you involved in a surveillance -- and 7 it wasn't in connection with your duties as a law 8 enforcement official, it's since you began doing work 9 with the Laborers' Union. Didn't you testify that you 10 were involved in a surveillance of Mr. Gironda? 11 A. I don't recall that, no, sir. 12 Q. Well didn't you -- maybe it was you picked 13 him up. Remember this? You don't remember a 14 surveillance of Mr. Caruso and Mr. Gironda that you 15 testified about? 16 A. Oh, yes. It wasn't me that was involved. It 17 was not myself that was involved in the surveillance. 18 Q. You didn't do the surveillance. 19 A. It was an FBI surveillance as I recall. 20 Q. An FBI surveillance? 21 A. I believe so, yes, sir. 22 Q. You were involved -- when I asked you if you 23 were involved, didn't you have something to do with 24 what prompted the surveillance? 25 A. I don't recall being involved in it, no, sir.
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1 Q. Well Mr. O'Rourke, didn't you testify about 2 certain papers for the District Council of the 3 Laborers' being served on Mr. Caruso? 4 A. Yes, sir, correct. 5 Q. And in the course of those -- that service of 6 papers, there was a surveillance conducted, was there 7 not? 8 A. Yes, there was. That's correct. 9 Q. And that surveillance of Mr. Caruso involved 10 Mr. Gironda, did it not? 11 A. Yes, it did. 12 Q. And the occasion was when you personally 13 served Trusteeship papers for the District Council on 14 Bruno Caruso, correct? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. And at the time you served these papers it 17 was at a golf course? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And present with Mr. Caruso was Mr. Gironda. 20 A. Yes, sir. I had forgotten that, that's 21 correct. 22 Q. Now Mr. Caruso was an officer of Local 1001? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Mr. Gironda at that time was also an officer 25 of 1001?
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1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And so this service of papers also concerned 3 Union business, did it not? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And you didn't physically do the surveillance 6 after the papers were served; is that correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. It was done by others. 9 A. Correct, sir. 10 Q. Including a Peter Dignan I believe is his 11 name. 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. He was a police officer for the Chicago 14 Police? 15 A. Yes, he was. 16 Q. And they followed the two cars, one 17 containing Mr. Bruno Caruso and the other containing 18 Nick Gironda, correct? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And you testified about that on November 21 12th, I believe it was, and probably the day before 22 too, right? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And you said, did you not, that they 25 eventually got to an address in the 200 block of West
760
1 25th Place in Chicago, correct? 2 A. I don't recall the specific address, but 3 that's approximately correct, yes, sir. 4 Q. But in the course of your testimony did you 5 make a mistake about what else may have been picked up 6 in that surveillance? Do you know or do you remember? 7 A. I don't recall, no, sir. 8 Q. Well do you recall that you testified that 9 before proceeding to the address on West 25th Place, 10 which incidentally you said was the residence of former 11 Alderman Roti. Do you remember that? 12 A. That's what the officers told me, yes, sir. 13 Q. That's what you were told. 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. But you reported to the Hearing Officer, Mr. 16 Vaira, that before going to that residence they made a 17 stop at Barbara Trucking. Do you remember that? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. The truth is that there was no surveillance 20 that ever put Nick Gironda or Bruno Caruso in Barbara 21 Trucking on June 16th, 1997; isn't that right? 22 A. I was advised that that's where they went 23 first. 24 Q. Who told you that? 25 A. The officers.
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1 Q. You're aware of the fact that they've 2 previously testified in the Caruso proceeding and in 3 the Trusteeship proceeding regarding the District 4 Council? 5 A. I don't recall that, but they may have. 6 Q. Did you ever review the testimony? 7 A. Their testimony, no, sir. 8 Q. Did you ever review the report of the 9 surveillance? 10 A. At the time I may have. I don't recall now, 11 sir. 12 Q. When did you last review it? 13 A. Right before I testified. 14 Q. Right before you testified -- 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. -- in November of 2003. 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 MR. LYDON: Well, I'm going to have to -- I 19 have one copy which I'll have to have it marked. 20 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: We'll wait. 21 We'll wait. We'll wait. Sure. Go ahead. I'll look 22 over your shoulder. 23 MR. THOMAS: Could I see it? 24 BY MR. LYDON: 25 Q. 52. I guess we do have it as an exhibit.
762
1 52? See that? Take a look at that. Is that 2 the report of the surveillance that was conducted by 3 one of the officers, looks like Scaramella? 4 A. Yes, sir. Gene Scaramella, right. 5 Q. And it reports on the surveillance of both 6 Gene Scaramella and Sergeant Peter Dignan, right? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Were you present when Sergeant Peter Dignan 9 testified previously about that surveillance? 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. That would have been in January of 2000. You 12 were involved, of course, in the Bruno Caruso 13 disciplinary proceeding, right? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And did you ever review the testimony of 16 Peter Dignan who actually was involved in the 17 surveillance? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. Where did you get this information about 20 Barbara Trucking? 21 A. I was advised by the officers that they lost 22 them on Damen Avenue but they found them -- they had 23 stopped at Barbara Trucking. And I recall that clicked 24 with me because I had arrested Fred Bruno Barbara, 25 along with Mr. Scigalski, one of the FBI agents, back
763
1 in approximately 1980. 2 Q. Well aside from the clicking with you because 3 you had a previous connection or -- aside from it 4 personally clicking with you, Mr. O'Rourke, that you 5 knew who Barbara was, I want to know who told you that 6 on June 16th, 1997 there was any stop made at Barbara 7 Trucking. 8 A. I was told this by Investigator Tom Bohling, 9 with the Cook County Sheriff's Police, who was a part 10 of that surveillance. 11 Q. Now Bohling's name doesn't appear anywhere on 12 this report of surveillance, does it? 13 A. No, sir. 14 Q. And you've reviewed this surveillance report 15 previously, have you not? 16 A. I looked at it, yes, sir. 17 Q. Nowhere in this surveillance report is there 18 any mention of Barbara Trucking, is there? 19 A. No, sir. Surveillance was conducted jointly 20 by the Chicago officers and some officers from the Cook 21 County Sheriff's Police, and their names do not appear 22 on it. 23 Q. This -- Scaramella was involved in the 24 surveillance. 25 A. Yes, sir.
764
1 Q. And Dignan was involved in the surveillance, 2 right? 3 A. Those two, yes, sir. 4 Q. And Investigators Doyle and Van Horn too, 5 right? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. Not one of them ever mentioned Barbara 8 Trucking, correct? 9 A. Not on the report, no, sir. 10 Q. So is there a -- in nowhere -- well is there 11 any other report that you've ever seen? 12 A. I can't recall. There may have been a Cook 13 County Sheriff's Police report, but I don't recall now, 14 sir. But I was advised that they had stopped when they 15 were looking for them at Barbara Trucking, and they 16 were lost until they picked them up pulling onto the 17 street at 25th Street. 18 Q. Are you familiar with what Sergeant Dignan 19 had to say about the surveillance? 20 A. I was not there when he testified, no, sir. 21 Q. Did you talk with Peter Dignan at any time 22 about what happened in that surveillance? 23 A. No, sir. I talked with Tom Bohling from the 24 Cook County Sheriff's Police. 25 Q. What about the surveillance as it continued
765
1 to what you believed to be the address of Fred Roti? 2 A. According to Tom Bohling and according to the 3 report, Sergeant Dignan observed both vehicles turning 4 eastbound on 25th Place, double parking their vehicles 5 in front of the residence at 231 West 25th Place, 6 Chicago. 7 Q. Okay. Now, you're reading from the report 8 that we've just referred to; is that right? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. Which is our Exhibit 52. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What about the actual testimony. Have you 13 heard any actual testimony in any case about this 14 surveillance and what happened when the vehicles went 15 onto West 25th Place? 16 A. Any testimony? There was some testimony 17 about -- I think there was -- there was an allegation 18 that it was not Fred Roti's home that they went into. 19 Q. What did you read in that respect? 20 A. Pardon me? 21 Q. What did you read in that respect or who 22 reported that to you? 23 A. I think it was a discussion after the 24 testimony as I recall. I don't believe I was present 25 for it.
766
1 Q. You're aware, are you not, that there was a 2 common walkway between the home of Fred Roti at 231 3 West 25th Place and 233 West 25th Place where Bruno 4 Caruso's mother resided. 5 A. I recall that was the discussion afterwards, 6 yes, sir. 7 Q. Do you recall that the person who saw or made 8 -- who testified regarding what occurred when the -- 9 when Gironda and Caruso left their vehicles at that 10 common walkway, do you recall that the person who 11 testified was Sergeant Peter Dignan regarding the 12 surveillance? 13 A. No, I was not present, no, sir. 14 Q. My question was: Do you recall that he was 15 the one who testified about what was observed. 16 A. I learned of that, yes, sir. He was the 17 author of the report. 18 Q. And do you recall that he also said that he 19 did not see and no one actually saw either Bruno Caruso 20 or Nick Gironda actually enter or exit either 231 or 21 233 West 25th Place. 22 A. I don't recall that, no, sir. 23 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: That's the 24 testimony. I recall it. 25 MR. LYDON: I have the testimony. We'll
767
1 offer it at a later time. 2 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I recall. 3 They didn't see them go in. 4 BY MR. LYDON: 5 Q. And didn't see them come out. 6 A. There was a discussion after the testimony, 7 but I wasn't present so I don't know. 8 Q. And during the first 30 minutes after the two 9 vehicles arrived at that address of 231 or 233 West 10 25th Place, approximately 30 minutes after the arrival 11 Mr. Fred Roti was observed outside at the curb smoking 12 a cigarette; is that correct? 13 A. I don't recall that, no, sir. 14 Q. You don't recall that. And you don't recall 15 that no one was observed with him 30 minutes after the 16 arrival. 17 A. No, sir, I don't. 18 Q. And you don't know anything about that at 19 all. 20 A. I wasn't present for the testimony, so I 21 don't know. 22 Q. So the testimony that you provided on the 23 11th and 12th of November was based on what in total? 24 A. A briefing on the results of the surveillance 25 by the police officers, specifically Tom Bohling from
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1 Cook County Sheriff's Police who was part of the 2 surveillance. 3 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Vaira, just for the record, 4 you've already made findings with respect to that both 5 in the CDC case and in Bruno Caruso. 6 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: The 7 testimony was nobody saw them talking to Fred Roti. 8 Whatever the findings were, the findings were. Go 9 ahead. 10 BY MR. LYDON: 11 Q. And just to sum up. On the Barbara Trucking, 12 are you aware of any official report of any kind, any 13 writing or any testimony, that previous to your 14 testimony in November of this year, placed Nick Gironda 15 and Bruno Caruso at Barbara Trucking in June -- 16 specifically on June 16th, 1997. 17 A. No, sir, I'm not aware of any. 18 Q. And the conversation that you had with the 19 Sheriff's Officer Bohling was when? 20 A. Immediately after the surveillance. 21 Q. And you did not file any written report that 22 included the stop at Barbara Trucking; is that right? 23 A. No, sir. 24 Q. Am I correct? 25 A. That's correct.
769
1 Q. Now while we're on the subject of Bruno 2 Caruso and Nick Gironda, when you testified in November 3 -- on November 11th of 2003, you said, did you not, or 4 testified that all of the informants told you that Nick 5 Gironda replaced Bruno Caruso because he was a member 6 of the 26th Street Crew, and as a way of continuing the 7 influence of that group; is that correct? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. That's what you testified to. 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. Yet it's a fact, is it not, that the person 12 who made the motion to elect or appoint Bruno Caruso -- 13 excuse me. Nick Gironda to replace Bruno Caruso was 14 Nate Gibson; is that right? 15 A. I don't know that, no, sir. 16 Q. Do you have our Exhibit 15 in front of you? 17 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Does he 18 have it? 19 MR. LYDON: He has it. 20 BY MR. LYDON: 21 Q. And 15 is a meeting of Local -- it's the 22 minutes of a meeting of Local 1001 on September 14th of 23 2001; is that right? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. An Emergency Special Executive Board Meeting,
770
1 correct? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Do you see, it would be the third page in -- 4 well let me give you a minute. You read those minutes 5 over so that in fairness to see what is involved here 6 is that Mr. Caruso has been expelled. Do you see that 7 on the second page? And then on the third page there 8 was a question of nominations for the office of 9 Business Manager, the office previously held by Bruno 10 Caruso. 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. And the motion was made by Nate Gibson, 13 right? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. The fact is that all of your -- none of your 16 informants had any information whatsoever suggesting 17 that Mr. Gibson was in any way connected with organized 18 crime, right? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. That's what you testified to. 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Now let's go to the Capasso allegations if we 23 can. And you've given me some more information this 24 afternoon that -- information that wasn't contained in 25 your testimony previously, right?
771
1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. And it wasn't in the complaint either, 3 correct? 4 A. That's correct. Yes, sir. 5 Q. The complaint was what number again? 49. Go 6 to 49, the complaint, and I want you to go to page 9. 7 Do you have page 9 in front of you? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And specifically I'm going to direct your 10 attention to the middle of the page regarding James 11 Capasso and paragraph 33 which concerns connection to 12 organized crime. Do you see that? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Now the allegation there is that "Capasso was 15 involved in bookmaking activities for the Chicago 16 Outfit with James "Little Jimmy" Marcello." Is that 17 information that you provided to Mr. Luskin? 18 A. Yes, sir, I believe so. 19 Q. Where did that information come from? 20 A. From the informants. 21 Q. So when you testified a short while ago, this 22 is something you overlooked about what they told you 23 specifically about James Capasso? 24 A. Yes, sir. This was from an old report. 25 Q. Who told you this?
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1 MR. THOMAS: Objection. 2 BY MR. LYDON: 3 Q. Who told you what is contained in paragraph 4 33? 5 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I'll 6 overrule the objection. 7 MR. THOMAS: He clarified it. Thank you. 8 THE WITNESS: I don't recall which of the 9 informants told me that, sir. I believe it was number 10 2, but I'm not sure. 11 BY MR. LYDON: 12 Q. Number 2 is the guy who also told you about 13 Rudy Fratto and Joseph Andriacci? 14 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Did you say 15 that was from an old report you said? 16 THE WITNESS: I received this in the mail and 17 didn't know what had gone into it, but I was providing 18 information all along. 19 BY MR. LYDON: 20 Q. What did you receive in the mail? 21 A. A copy of the complaint. 22 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: What do you 23 mean by "old report"? Old FBI report? 24 THE WITNESS: I had debriefed these 25 informants over the years and had supplied that
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1 information over a period of time to the GEB Attorney. 2 BY MR. LYDON: 3 Q. Beginning when? 4 A. Beginning when we began our investigation. 5 But in this particular case probably sometime in late 6 2002, early 2003. 7 Q. Okay. 8 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: When you 9 say "old report", would that be -- when I was back in 10 the business we used to refer to it as a 92 Report 11 with the Bureau, which is purely intelligence? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 13 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Purely 14 intelligence. 15 BY MR. LYDON: 16 Q. But in any event, somewhere in late 2002 or 17 early 2003, just so we're clear, informant number 2 18 provided you this information regarding James Capasso, 19 this information being the information that's contained 20 in paragraph 33 of the complaint -- 21 A. It's either 2 or 5. I don't recall off the 22 top of my head, sir. 23 Q. What about your notes? Do they tell you? 24 A. I'm sure they would, but I don't have them 25 handy right now.
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1 Q. Where are your notes? 2 A. In the office. 3 Q. So I assume you would be able to overnight, 4 we're going to be continuing tomorrow anyway, go back 5 and gather your notes and find out more about the 6 source of this information, right? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 MR. LYDON: Mr. Hearing Officer, I would ask 9 that he do that. 10 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: They would 11 refresh his recollection? 12 MR. LYDON: Yes. 13 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Would you 14 do that for me please? 15 THE WITNESS: Sure. 16 MR. THOMAS: Just procedurally. If we need 17 to get him on the phone, that may be necessary. He's 18 not available tomorrow. 19 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: We'll get 20 him one way or the other. 21 MR. THOMAS: Right. Exactly. 22 BY MR. LYDON: 23 Q. Now while we're on the subject of this James 24 "Little Jimmy" Marcello, he's described in paragraph 33 25 as "a high-ranking LCN figure who is currently in
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1 federal prison," correct? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. Do you agree with that description that he's 4 "a high-ranking LCN figure"? 5 A. Yes, sir, and he's just gotten out of prison. 6 Q. Do you agree with the description that he's 7 "a high-ranking LCN figure"? 8 A. Yes, sir. He was the underboss of the 9 Chicago Mob. 10 Q. For how long was he in federal prison? 11 A. He was convicted with Sam Carlisi and his 12 crew in approximately 1991, '92, and -- 13 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Who are you 14 talking about? 15 THE WITNESS: James Marcello. 16 BY MR. LYDON: 17 Q. And would it be fair to say that James 18 Marcello being described as "a high-ranking LCN 19 figure," was someone, for example, that the Chicago 20 Crime Commission alleged was a member of organized 21 crime, right? 22 A. I assume that they would have, yes, sir. 23 Q. In contrast, the Chicago Crime Commission has 24 never alleged that one of these current officers of 25 Local 1001 is an associate or a member of organized
776
1 crime; is that correct? 2 A. I believe that's correct, yes, sir. 3 Q. Now there have been newspaper reports about 4 the connection of Mr. Marcello to organized crime, 5 correct? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. With respect to the specific allegations of 8 paragraph 33, the allegation is that Capasso was 9 involved in bookmaking activities, right? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. Bookmaking activities are illegal activities, 12 right? 13 A. Yes, they are. 14 Q. And where were the informants -- one of the 15 informants told you that he was engaged in bookmaking 16 activities. It's either 2 or 5 we've determined, 17 right? 18 A. Yes, sir. And it was in his earlier life. 19 It wasn't recently. 20 Q. And the other informants had no knowledge of 21 his doing anything illegal, right? 22 A. Not specifically as I recall, no, sir. 23 Q. That's what you testified to a short time 24 ago. 25 A. Yes, sir, that's right.
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1 Q. This Rudy Fratto, he's also a person 2 prominently known as an associate or member of 3 organized crime, right? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Joseph Andriacci is also prominently known as 6 a member of organized crime, right? 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. Joseph Andriacci, some people might accuse 9 him of being currently the head of organized crime in 10 the Chicago area, right? 11 A. Yes, sir, that's true. 12 Q. Now are you aware of any surveillance of any 13 sort -- let me back up. 14 There was no doubt surveillance done over the 15 years by the FBI and by law enforcement people of James 16 Marcello, correct? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Likewise, there has been surveillance of Rudy 19 Fratto? 20 A. I'm not sure if there has been on Fratto. 21 Q. Joseph Andriacci? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. When we talk about Andriacci and Marcello, 24 you're confident, are you not, that given the 25 prominence that they have, that there was a lot of
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1 surveillance conducted by many different law 2 enforcement officers of these individuals over a time. 3 A. Probably, yes, sir. 4 Q. Probably over the last 25 years, there's been 5 surveillance of them, correct? 6 A. Probably, yes, sir. 7 Q. And how about you yourself? In your 32 years 8 of investigating organized crime were you involved in 9 any surveillances of Marcello or Fratto or Andriacci. 10 A. No, sir. 11 Q. Did you review surveillance reports that 12 concerned any of these individuals. 13 A. Yes, sir, I did. 14 Q. And again we're talking about all forms of 15 surveillance, physical in terms of pictures or cameras, 16 moving camera, pictures, physical reports, wire tap 17 kinds of transcripts. You've seen a lot of that, 18 right? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. In any of that surveillance do you recall 21 ever seeing the name or picking up that James Capasso 22 was in any way associating with these individuals. 23 A. I don't recall that, no, sir. 24 Q. He was never seen socially with any of these 25 individuals so far as you know, right?
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1 A. So as far as I know, yes, sir. 2 Q. And so although you got information from 3 Granata and 2, 5, and 12, there's nothing that you have 4 that corroborates that information except the word of 5 these individuals, right? 6 A. Yes, sir. 7 Q. That's correct, is it not? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. Now let's go to another individual. How 10 about Robert Chianelli. Do you have the complaint in 11 front of you? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. And if you go to page 7, you see the 14 information there? 15 A. Yes, sir. 16 Q. Where did that information come from? 17 A. Informant number 5. 18 Q. Informant number 5, is he the fellow who 19 referred to Robert Chianelli as "Bobby Chi"? 20 A. Yes, sir. Two informants did that. 21 Q. Two informants referred to him as "Bobby 22 Chi"? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. And you testified about that on November 25 12th; is that correct?
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1 A. I believe I did, yes, sir. 2 Q. On November 12th -- let me refresh your 3 recollection. You said one informant referred to him 4 as "Bobby Chi". 5 A. It was two, both 2 -- informant number 2 and 6 informant number 5. 7 Q. So both informants 2 and 5 you're saying now 8 referred to Robert Chianelli as "Bobby Chi". 9 A. Yes, they did, yes, sir. 10 Q. And you do recall that your testimony was 11 that one informant, number 5, referred to him as "Bobby 12 Chi" when you testified on November 12th. 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. When did you have this conversation with 15 number 2? 16 A. The last -- last week. 17 Q. And was it specifically to talk about Robert 18 Chianelli? 19 A. No, sir. 20 Q. How did the subject "Bobby Chi" come up? 21 A. I asked him -- I wasn't specifically about 22 Chianelli, but I was going through the names again, and 23 I said, "Did you know any other names for Chianelli," 24 and he said, "Bobby Chi", which was the same as the 25 other informant said.
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1 Q. And this procedure, when you're going through 2 the names again, basically you're taking a list of 3 names and you're asking him, "What about this guy? 4 What about this guy?" Right? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. How many times have you gone over that list 7 with these informants? 8 A. Several times. 9 Q. What's several? 10 A. I don't recall exactly. I usually try and do 11 it whenever I see them. 12 Q. And evidently each time you go and ask them 13 about these names again and again and again, you get 14 more information, is that it? 15 A. Sometimes, not always. 16 Q. At least in this instance you claim you got 17 additional information? 18 A. I got additional information that he knew him 19 also as "Bobby Chi", yes, sir. 20 Q. What else did he tell you about him other 21 than "Bobby Chi", number 2? 22 A. He reiterated what he had previously said. 23 Q. What did he previously say? 24 A. That he knew him as a member of organized 25 crime.
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1 Q. As a member of organized crime now. 2 A. An associate. 3 Q. Which was it? 4 A. An associate. 5 Q. What specifically did he tell you about him? 6 A. That he was affiliated with the Elmwood Park 7 Crew. 8 Q. Who in the Elmwood Park Crew? 9 A. Rudy Fratto. 10 Q. Anybody else? 11 A. That's all I recall, sir. 12 Q. Incidentally, what did he say his association 13 was with Rudy Fratto? What did he do with Rudy Fratto? 14 A. Just that he was an associate of his. 15 Q. Did he claim that he engaged in any illegal 16 activities with Mr. Fratto? 17 A. Not specifically, no, sir. 18 Q. What kinds of activities -- illegal 19 activities is Mr. Fratto associated with? 20 A. Bookmaking, loan sharking. He's a lieutenant 21 to Joe Andriacci. 22 Q. And I take it that Mr. Andriacci is involved 23 in the same activities then. 24 A. Well he's the overseer or the boss. They 25 report to him.
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1 Q. Okay. 2 When you were talking about James Capasso and 3 said that he was closely associated with Rudy Fratto 4 and Joseph Andriacci, that number 2 said this, was that 5 also related to bookmaking and loan sharking with 6 regard to James Capasso? 7 A. Chianelli? 8 Q. No. Capasso. 9 A. Excuse me. Early in his career, yes, sir. 10 They said they knew him. 11 Q. When is early in his career? 12 A. When he was younger and not in a position as 13 Executive Director of the City Pension Fund. 14 Q. How much earlier? Did you ask him about 15 that? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. What did he tell you? 18 A. When he was much younger. I don't recall 19 anything specific. 20 Q. Did you ask him how much younger? 21 A. Yes, sir. He said he knew him for most of 22 his life, and he identified him as Jimmy Capasso and 23 said that he knew him when he was a bookmaker, and he 24 was a member of -- an organized crime associate. 25 Q. When? Some approximate time.
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1 A. 1980's, 1970's. 2 Q. Coming back to Robert Chianelli. Now you got 3 this recent information about him, and now we've got 2 4 and 5 that call him "Bobby Chi". Did anybody explain 5 why he's called "Bobby Chi"? 6 A. No, sir. Just a nickname, according to them. 7 Q. Turn to page 7 of the complaint in this case 8 if you would please, paragraph 25. Do you have it in 9 front of you? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 A. Did you play any role in providing the 12 information that's contained or alleged in paragraph 25 13 to the GEB Attorney? 14 A. Regarding Chianelli? 15 Q. Yes, sir. 16 A. Yes, sir. It's probably based on information 17 I provided. 18 Q. So this too is additional information about 19 information you previously testified about in this 20 hearing, correct? 21 A. The section about "Bobby Chi" is. 22 Q. There's nothing about "Bobby Chi" that I see 23 in paragraph 25. 24 A. You just asked me what's -- 25 Q. No. I'm asking you about paragraph 25.
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1 You've not previously testified about anything that's 2 contained here in paragraph 25 previously, correct, in 3 this proceeding? 4 A. I've not testified? 5 Q. You've not testified about the allegation in 6 paragraph 25, have you? 7 A. No, sir. Oh, I see what you mean. No, I 8 have not. 9 Q. In paragraph 25 there's an allegation that 10 "Chianelli is or was involved in organized crime 11 bookmaking activities," and you testified about that, 12 correct? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. Here you say he's "associated with LCN 15 bookmaker Bobby Garippo." 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Who gave you that information? 18 A. Informant number 5. 19 Q. So 5 gave you more than the Rudy Fratto 20 connection -- or wait. 2 was the one who gave you Rudy 21 Fratto, right? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. So 5 had this information. 24 Now about Bobby Garippo. Who is Bobby 25 Garippo?
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1 A. He's a bookmaker. 2 Q. Is he identified in any publication that's 3 open that the public sees? Have you ever seen anything 4 that alleges that Bobby Garippo is a bookmaker? 5 A. I've seen a lot of things, but they're not 6 open to the public. The Bureau files, the Chicago 7 Police intelligence files, the Cook County Sheriff's 8 Police intelligence files. 9 Q. What does this guy do for a living, Bobby 10 Garippo? 11 A. He's a bookmaker. I don't know what else he 12 does. I never worked on him. 13 Q. Do you know anything more about him? 14 A. I believe he's a distant relative of Judge 15 Garippo. 16 Q. Cousin? 17 A. Cousin. Could be. I'm not sure. He's a 18 relative. But he's considered to be a Chicago Mob 19 bookmaker. 20 Q. By whom? 21 A. FBI, Chicago Police intelligence, Cook County 22 Sheriff's Police intelligence. 23 Q. In any event, one of the informants that was 24 -- 5, I guess, gave you this information? 25 A. Yes, sir.
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1 Q. What specific information did 5 tell you 2 about Mr. Chianelli's association with Bobby Garippo? 3 A. That he had acted as a bookmaker with and for 4 Garippo. 5 Q. When? 6 A. Years ago. 7 Q. How many years ago? 8 A. He didn't say, sir. He said he recalled that 9 he was associated with Bobby Garippo as a bookmaker. 10 Q. You're not aware of any arrests ever of Bobby 11 Chianelli -- Robert Chianelli, I should say, or James 12 Capasso for bookmaking, right? 13 A. I'm not aware of any, no, sir. 14 Q. You're not even aware of any list that would 15 indicate that they were involved in bookmaking or 16 identified within any paperwork that was ever seized of 17 bookmaking activities, right? 18 A. Garippo? 19 Q. I'm sorry. Chianelli or Capasso. 20 A. That's correct. Yes, sir. 21 Q. Now the allegation in the second sentence of 22 paragraph 25 is that "Chianelli is known to have 23 associated with LCN figures," meaning organized crime 24 figures, right? 25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. "At Dappers Restaurant on Belmont and 2 Cumberland Avenues in Chicago." 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Where did that information come from? 5 A. Informant number 5. 6 Q. Who were the LCN figures that he was known to 7 have associated with at Dappers Restaurant? 8 A. Number 5 said he had seen him there talking 9 with individuals known to the source as LCN bookmakers 10 and their associates, no specific names. 11 Q. No names. Okay. 12 And then finally, "Sources within the Chicago 13 Outfit have identified Chianelli as an associate of the 14 Elmwood Park Crew." Who? 15 A. Informant number 2, informant number 5, and 16 informant number 12. 17 Q. And specifically who within the Elmwood Park 18 Crew? 19 A. Bobby Garippo would be one, Rudy Fratto would 20 be the other, and other than that they indicated that 21 he was affiliated with the Elmwood Park Crew, no 22 particular names. 23 Q. And again was there a time period put on this 24 association with Elmwood Park Crew? 25 A. No, sir, there was not.
789
1 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: What do you 2 associate "with the Crew? I mean, hang around? They 3 meet? There's various degrees of association. Do 4 something for them? Was there anything more definite 5 than that? 6 THE WITNESS: No, sir. They were vague about 7 it. They indicated they knew him to be an associate of 8 the Elmwood Park Crew. One informant had seen him at 9 Dappers talking with individuals in the Elmwood Park 10 Crew, and that had also known that he was a bookmaker 11 early on associating with Bobby Garippo. Other than 12 that they had no specific information. 13 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: What do you 14 mean by "bookmaker"? Take bets? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 16 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Carry them 17 in and what? 18 THE WITNESS: Bookmaking, you know, that he 19 would take bets as a bookmaker. And then as part of 20 the Elmwood Park Crew, they would be beholding to the 21 crew that they're involved in. Often times they paid 22 street tax to continue as a bookmaker. 23 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Go 24 ahead. 25 BY MR. LYDON:
790
1 Q. Are you aware of any surveillance at any time 2 that ever picked up Robert Chianelli in the presence or 3 involved with any member of organized crime? 4 A. I'm not aware of any, no, sir. 5 MR. LYDON: I have no other questions. 6 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I'm going 7 to take a ten minute break. 8 (Whereupon a break was taken in 9 the proceedings after which the 10 following proceedings were had:) 11 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Ladies and 12 gentlemen, let's go back on the record. 13 MR. LYDON: Just a couple of cleanup matters 14 if I can, Mr. Vaira. 15 BY MR. LYDON: 16 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, you mentioned notes that you 17 were going to go back and check. Could you just 18 describe what you're talking about physically, what it 19 is, how many pages -- or what is it? Handwritten 20 notes? 21 A. Handwritten notes, yes. 22 Q. When did you make these handwritten notes? 23 A. Right after I talked to the informant or 24 during. 25 Q. I'm sorry?
791
1 A. While I'm talking to the informant or right 2 afterwards. 3 Q. And how many informants are covered by these 4 notes? Or is this notes going all the way back, or 5 what is it? 6 A. Notes going all the way back, yes, sir. 7 Q. So these are all of your notes regarding 8 1001? 9 A. Regarding everything. 10 Q. All of your notes regarding -- what do you 11 mean by "everything"? 12 A. Investigations of various Locals including 13 1001. 14 Q. I take it we're talking about a volume of 15 materials? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. How much? 18 A. Quite a bit. I'm not -- I couldn't guess. 19 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Something 20 as big as this volume here which is about three inches 21 thick? 22 THE WITNESS: Bigger than that, sir. 23 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Six inches 24 thick. 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
792
1 BY MR. LYDON: 2 Q. So you have a six inch volume of notes. 3 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: 4 Handwritten. 5 BY MR. LYDON: 6 Q. Handwritten notes. 7 A. Yes, sir. 8 Q. And you maintain them what? Chronologically? 9 Or how do you organize them? 10 A. Chronologically, yes, sir. 11 Q. And which ones are you going to go back and 12 look at now? 13 A. Specifically what you asked. 14 Q. Yeah. And I'm asking what is it -- what is 15 in your notes that you're going to go back and check 16 on? 17 A. As I recall, which one said that Chianelli 18 was a bookmaker; is that correct? 19 MR. THOMAS: The transcript will obviously 20 have it, as I recollect it, whether it was 2 or 5 that 21 identified him in that matter. 22 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 23 BY MR. LYDON: 24 Q. And likewise I think you had the same 25 information regarding Capasso, wasn't it?
793
1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. So you were going to check your notes 3 regarding both Capasso and Chianelli apparently, right? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. So this is something that was recent, right? 6 A. Fairly recent, yes, sir. I don't recall 7 exactly when. 8 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: If I 9 remember, you said one of it was an old report, and I 10 asked him if it was an old 92 report, those old things 11 that used to pass them out. 12 MR. LYDON: It's actually something else 13 we're talking about. 14 BY MR. LYDON: 15 Q. The association with Fratto and Andriacci 16 with respect to Capasso, and the association with 17 Fratto regarding Chianelli, right? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. It was specifically with one of the 20 informants. 21 A. Yes, sir. 22 Q. Which one was it? You talked to him 23 recently, right, since the last -- 24 A. I talk with them all the time, sir. 25 Q. All of them?
794
1 A. Usually weekly, sometimes monthly. Usually 2 weekly. 3 Q. Not all of them -- all of them? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. Granata? 6 A. Yes, sir. Not as often with him. On the 7 telephone usually. 8 Q. Granata's been gone from the scene for more 9 than ten years, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What could he tell you? 12 A. Things that happened ten years before. 13 Q. And how many pages of notes are you going to 14 have regarding these guys to look at regarding number 15 2? 16 A. Well I'll look in all of number 2 notes. 17 I'll find it. 18 Q. And is it going to tell you when? 19 A. It will tell me when he said it. 20 Q. And it's going to tell you what specifically 21 he said? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. You write down word for word what they say? 24 A. No, sir, not word for word. Sometimes I'll 25 put quotes when they make certain statements.
795
1 Q. Are you able to produce a copy of the note 2 for Mr. Vaira to look at? 3 A. I understand that that's not required, no, 4 sir. 5 MR. THOMAS: We would object to that 6 obviously, Mr. Vaira. I don't know whether that was 7 asked or not, but we would object. 8 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: You want a 9 ruling on that? 10 MR. LYDON: Fine. 11 MR. THOMAS: If I may be heard. 12 The specific request -- let me rephrase that. 13 The request was made specifically to refresh 14 his recollection. And Mr. Lydon knows completely well 15 how refreshing a recollection is supposed to work. You 16 look at a document and refresh your recollection and 17 you say, "I've looked at this document. Now my 18 recollection is refreshed. I'm prepared to testify." 19 This is not any kind of a discovery tool or a 20 device to see if we can get additional information to 21 cross examination Mr. O'Rourke with. He can refresh 22 his recollection, that's what he's been requested to 23 do, and there's nothing that he needs to do other than 24 look at the document and say it either refreshes his 25 recollection or it doesn't.
796
1 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: What's your 2 request, Mr. Lydon? 3 MR. LYDON: I was going to ask you to take a 4 look at the most recent notes that contain additional 5 information that hadn't been testified to at the time 6 of his direct examination a couple weeks ago. 7 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: And what 8 would occur if I did? 9 MR. LYDON: I'm asking you to examine them 10 and to determine that they comport with what the 11 testimony is. 12 MR. THOMAS: And -- well, that is something 13 very different from what he requested the first time 14 which was that he refresh his recollection. 15 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I 16 understand that. But I'm sitting here waiting for 17 this. As this is evolving, I'm sitting here waiting 18 for somebody to make this request. I knew it was 19 coming. 20 MR. THOMAS: But what, Mr. Vaira, is he now 21 doing is asking you to weigh in to see in an in camera 22 process as to whether there's anything of impeachment 23 value that Mr. Lydon would really like to have his 24 hands on. That's a very different request and also 25 totally improper because there's been no showing here
797
1 that he's been untruthful in any way. He has shown 2 that there is more in the testimony that is in the 3 charges, and that's not unusual in any way. But that 4 doesn't mean that the witness can't simply look at the 5 documents and say, "My recollection has been 6 refreshed." 7 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: There's 8 been a ruling of -- I have ruled in the past, based 9 upon an agreement between the Department of Justice and 10 this Union, that the notes -- the prior notes of the 11 agents are not to be treated as -- and not be turned 12 over, and that's for sure. But it never reached a 13 point, the issue of showing something to me in camera 14 to see for whatever purpose. And my question is: What 15 am I looking for? That there is no reference? Or the 16 reference isn't exactly as he says? And I'm trying to 17 figure out where I am and what kind of slippery slope 18 this might be. 19 MR. THOMAS: That's exactly my point. The 20 genesis of this was an answer the witness gave, "I'm 21 not sure whether it was 2 or 5." And he said, "Would 22 that be in your notes?" And he said, "It probably 23 would be." "If you saw your notes, would that refresh 24 your recollection?" "Yes, it would." Well the remedy 25 for that is absolutely clear. You look at the notes,
798
1 and it either refreshes or it doesn't refresh and it 2 doesn't go any further. 3 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: And Mr. 4 Lydon is saying that he wants to go one step further 5 and saying, "Here it is, Mr. Vaira, for you in camera 6 to look at." 7 My question is: What do I do once I look at 8 it? What do I do? Do I come back and say, "It's 9 confirmed that he spoke to him," or what? 10 MR. THOMAS: The rules on refreshing 11 recollection are as clear as can be. It could be the 12 phone book. There's nothing for the Hearing Officer to 13 do. 14 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I realize 15 that, but I think he's somewhat changed his request. 16 Refreshing his recollection, obviously he can refresh 17 it by looking at the wall, whatever. I'll just think 18 about this until the end of this. I'm not too sure 19 what the -- 20 MR. LYDON: We can revisit it later. 21 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: We'll 22 revisit it. I don't want to put myself in a -- if I 23 looked at it and says, "Yes, it does exist there," I 24 don't want to get myself in the position of giving any 25 more credibility, or whatever, by sitting here saying
799
1 what it says. Let's think about that and we'll revisit 2 that at the end of the day. Go ahead. 3 MR. LYDON: I don't have any other questions 4 for Mr. O'Rourke. 5 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Okay. 6 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 7 BY 8 MR. THOMAS: 9 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, Mr. Lydon asked you a number of 10 questions about surveillances and whether you've done 11 and whether you've been aware of surveillances on 12 different individuals. Do you recall that line of 13 questioning? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. As an inspector for the -- as an officer in 16 the Inspector General's Office, do you have authority 17 to do surveillances of members of LIUNA? 18 A. No, sir. Ordinarily we do not. 19 Q. All right. So if Mr. Lydon asks you, you 20 know, "Gee, how come you don't have surveillances," one 21 answer at least is that you don't have the authority 22 from Mr. Gow to do that. 23 A. Yes, sir, that's correct. 24 Q. There was another line of questioning 25 concerning whether you were aware of law enforcement
800
1 surveillances on different people. When Bruno Caruso 2 was Business Manager of Local 1001, to your knowledge 3 were there any law enforcement surveillances of Mr. 4 Caruso? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. Could you give us the details of that please. 7 A. Yes, sir. The FBI Organized Crime Task Force 8 conducted a surveillance at Palermo's Restaurant on 9 95th Street in Oak lawn to cover an alleged meeting 10 between Union officials and members of organized crime. 11 And during the surveillance they observed Bruno Caruso, 12 Frank Caruso, James DiForti, and Leo Caruso meet with 13 John Monteleone at that time, who was the boss, the 14 underboss of the Chicago LCN. 15 Q. And Mr. Caruso held what position at Local 16 1001 at the time? 17 A. As I recall he was the Business Manager. 18 Q. What year was that if you recall? 19 A. Approximately 1994 I believe. 20 Q. There was testimony concerning Dappers 21 Restaurant, an observation that someone had been at 22 Dappers Restaurant. Who was that that you were 23 referring to in that testimony? 24 A. Mr. Chianelli. 25 Q. What's the significance of Dappers Restaurant
801
1 based on your training and experience in law 2 enforcement? Is there any significance that attaches 3 to Dappers Restaurant? 4 A. It's known to law enforcement as a meeting 5 place for bookmakers and mobsters, both Dappers. 6 There's one on Cumberland Avenue about 5400 north, and 7 a second one at Cumberland and Belmont Avenues. It's 8 also, of course, frequented by regular people, honest 9 people, and police officers and a whole variety of 10 people. 11 Q. Mr. Lydon asked you about the transfer from 12 Bruno Caruso to Nick Gironda after Mr. Caruso was 13 removed. Do you recall that? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And he went to great lengths to show you a 16 document indicating that Nate Gibson actually made the 17 motion and that your testimony was that you had no 18 information that Mr. Gibson was connected in any way 19 with organized crime. Do you recall that? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. What significance, if any, do you attach to 22 the fact that a non-outfit person, a non-connected 23 person actually made that motion. Is there any 24 significance to that? 25 A. None as far as I know, sir.
802
1 Q. And the fact that a non-outfit or a 2 non-connected person made that motion, would that 3 necessarily mean that the person -- the other people 4 that we're talking about are therefore not connected? 5 A. No, sir. 6 Q. There were quite a few questions concerning 7 the -- what you heard from the officers who did the 8 surveillance of the service of the Trusteeship papers 9 on Bruno Caruso specifically about Barbara Trucking -- 10 a stop at Barbara Trucking. I wanted to ask you about 11 that. First of all let's establish, were you doing 12 anything other than serving papers that day? 13 A. No, sir. 14 A. So you were not involved in the surveillance 15 itself. 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. So whatever it is that you learned, you 18 learned through conversations with other officers who 19 were involved? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. In your experience is it unusual or out of 22 the ordinary for there to be a surveillance report that 23 doesn't list every single name of the officers 24 involved? 25 A. I really can't answer that. I believe the
803
1 officers listed were Chicago Police Intelligence 2 Division officers, but the surveillance was jointly 3 conducted with the Cook County Sheriff's Police as 4 well. 5 Q. If Bohling's name is not listed on the 6 surveillance report, would you read anything into that? 7 A. No, sir. 8 Q. And how about the reference that Mr. Bohling 9 made to you that they stopped at Barbara Trucking or 10 that they lost them in that area? Would there be any 11 reason why that wouldn't be in the surveillance report? 12 A. It's been my experience that often times if 13 an individual stops someplace and it's not significant 14 to the officers, then they don't mention that, specific 15 addresses and so on. 16 Q. If you had been the surveillance officer and 17 you had seen them stop at Barbara Trucking, would you 18 have included it in the surveillance report? 19 A. Yes, I would have. Yes, sir. 20 Q. And to your mind is there anything unusual 21 that the officers may not have made that connection in 22 their own minds. 23 A. No, sir. I was advised that that was not 24 included in the report, but it was mentioned to me. 25 Q. Verbally from Mr. Bohling?
804
1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. Mr. Lydon asked you, and indeed there was 3 even some reaction in the room to this question. He 4 said, "Did you check their arrest records." Are you 5 allowed to check arrest records as part of your duties 6 with the Inspector General's Office? 7 A. No, sir. We're not law enforcement officers 8 anymore, so we don't have access to criminal records. 9 Q. What do you have access to? Can you check 10 for convictions? 11 A. We can check for convictions through the 12 computers in the state, local and federal courts. 13 Q. Okay. So when Mr. Lydon asked you, "Did you 14 bother to check their arrest records," you're saying 15 that that's not something that you have the ability to 16 do under your current job. 17 A. That's correct, yes, sir. 18 Q. The first portion of Mr. Lydon's cross 19 examination had to do with the fact that the complaint 20 indicates that 13 of the 33 pension names are organized 21 crime associates. Do you recall that line of 22 testimony? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. We went on for some time with that -- with 25 that line of testimony. And that he then pointed out
805
1 that your live testimony was that there were -- in your 2 view 22 of the names were connected to the Chicago 3 Outfit. 4 Let me ask you this: Is it at all unusual 5 for the GEB Attorney's Office in making charging 6 decisions or charging language to use less of the 7 information than you actually provide to them? 8 A. Yes, sir, that's correct. 9 Q. That it's unusual or not unusual? 10 A. That's not unusual. 11 Q. So is there any particular significance to 12 the fact that the charging documents that Mr. Luskin 13 put together say 13 of 33 and your testimony is that 14 it's 22 of 33. 15 A. No, sir. 16 Q. Is there anything further you wish to 17 elaborate on how that came about? 18 A. No, sir. 19 Q. Mr. O'Rourke, is it your experience in law 20 enforcement and since you've been retired from law 21 enforcement, that everyone in -- who is involved in 22 organized crime has either an arrest record or a 23 conviction record? 24 A. No, sir. 25 Q. Is it your experience that quite a few of
806
1 them do not? 2 A. Yes, sir. I think probably most of them do 3 not. 4 Q. So the fact that -- what significance, if 5 any, do you attach to the fact that some of the names 6 that we've gone over here are people who don't have 7 either arrest records or conviction records. Is there 8 any particular salience to that point? 9 A. No, sir. 10 MR. THOMAS: Nothing further, Mr. Vaira. 11 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Lydon? 12 RECROSS EXAMINATION 13 BY 14 MR. LYDON: 15 Q. You testified about the awareness of arrest 16 records and surveillances, and you testified in cross 17 examination earlier today about not being aware of any 18 concerning these existing current officers of Local 19 1001. You included within your testimony, did you not, 20 the experiences and things you learned during the 21 course of your 32 years as a law enforcement officer, 22 correct? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. So you weren't restricting this just to the 25 period of time that you've been an investigator for the
807
1 Laborers' International, right? 2 A. We conducted no surveillances ourselves. 3 Q. I understand. 4 A. And I was not aware of any particular 5 specific surveillances conducted where their names came 6 up. 7 Q. But you asked, right? 8 A. Pardon me? 9 Q. Did you ask? 10 A. Did I ask? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. No. 13 Q. But again, when you do know -- when you are 14 asked about surveillances and the surveillances you've 15 been involved in, we're talking about all of your years 16 with law enforcement, right? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. And I'm not sure you got a chance to finish 19 this answer. When you were talking about Dappers 20 Restaurant as being known as a meeting place for 21 bookmakers, you did add, did you not, that it's also 22 frequented by ordinary folks I think was the word? 23 A. Yes, sir. 24 Q. Including police officers. 25 A. Yes.
808
1 Q. So it's a regular restaurant. 2 A. That it is, yes, sir. 3 Q. Nothing exclusive about it. 4 A. No, sir. 5 MR. LYDON: I don't have any other 6 questions. 7 MR. THOMAS: Can I on that last question? 8 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Okay. You 9 get one question. 10 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION 11 BY 12 MR. THOMAS: 13 Q. The places that you know from your training 14 in law enforcement and your experience in law 15 enforcement you know to be organized crime hangouts, 16 are they all ordinary restaurants? 17 A. Yes, sir, they are. 18 MR. THOMAS: Nothing further. 19 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: There was a 20 substantial amount of testimony from New York that 21 there's certain places that only the boys can go. And 22 if you go there, you're one of the boys. That's not 23 one of these. This is a public place. 24 THE WITNESS: It's a public restaurant, yes, 25 sir.
809
1 MR. LYDON: That's all I was trying to get 2 across. 3 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I got that 4 point about fifteen minutes ago. All right, fellows. 5 Thank you, Mr. O'Rourke. 6 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 7 (Witness excused.) 8 MR. MENDENHALL: At this time, Mr. Vaira, we 9 would like to call John Rea. 10 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: John Rea. 11 Mr. Rea, would you be sworn in and give the 12 young lady your full spelling of your name. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 14 (Witness duly sworn.) 15 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Ladies and 16 gentlemen, I know Mr. Rea. And a lot of years ago I 17 was in private practice and he was associated with 18 another fine investigator named James McCarthy. He did 19 some work for me as an investigator, about 1992, out in 20 Pittsburgh. So I'll let you know that I know him and 21 he once worked for -- that that was his business and he 22 had many other clients. All right. 23 JOHN D. REA, 24 called as a witness herein, having first been duly 25 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
810
1 DIRECT EXAMINATION 2 BY 3 MR. MENDENHALL: 4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Rea. 5 A. Good afternoon. 6 Q. Please state your full name. 7 A. Yes. John D. Rea, R-e-a. 8 Q. How are you currently employed, Mr. Rea? 9 A. I'm a private investigator. 10 Q. Approximately how long have you worked as a 11 private investigator? 12 A. Since 1985, approximately 18 years. 13 Q. Can you tell us your educational 14 background. 15 A. Yes. I graduated from St. Rita High School 16 here in Chicago and then got an undergraduate degree 17 from the University of Illinois at Circle in Criminal 18 Justice. 19 Q. And can you just briefly walk us through your 20 employment history going back from UIC to the present 21 and just explain for us a little bit about the nature 22 of each particular job. 23 A. Certainly. In 1977 when I was in college I 24 began working at the U.S. Attorney's Office as a clerk 25 doing basically administrative type work. Then was
811
1 supervisor of the administrative staff. And then I 2 became a legal assistant there. I was working with the 3 prosecutors on various cases that were going to trial. 4 Subsequent to that in 1983 I joined the 5 Secret Service. I was a Special Agent for a year, and 6 then in 1984 or '85, I'm not sure, I returned to the 7 U.S. Attorney's Office, but I was actually appointed as 8 an inspector with the Illinois State Police and I 9 worked out of the U.S. Attorney's Office, for the most 10 part, exclusively on the Greylord project, the judicial 11 corruption case. Since that time I've been doing 12 private investigative work. 13 Q. Can you just briefly walk us through your 14 background in the private investigative field. 15 A. Yes. When I left the government, as Mr. 16 Vaira alluded, I was working with a fellow named James 17 McCarthy, and I worked for his company, Attorney's 18 Information Services. About 1989 I obtained my own 19 license as a private investigator, so from that point 20 on I've had my own business. And for the most part I 21 work for law firms and corporations conducting internal 22 investigations for sole practitioners and doing 23 investigation on -- usually in criminal defense or 24 commercial litigation, products liability defense, 25 pretty much the entire gamut.
812
1 Q. You mentioned you were a U.S. Secret Service 2 Agent. What did you do in that regard? 3 A. I was -- our Charter mandates that we protect 4 the president, current president, any former president, 5 any head of -- Foreign Head of State as well as 6 investigate violations of counterfeiting laws, threats 7 against the president, things of that nature. 8 Q. And when you say "the president," you mean 9 the president and former presidents of the United 10 States? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Mr. Rea, now I would like to turn your 13 attention to the 1999 time frame, okay? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. In early 1999 were your services retained by 16 Local 1001? 17 A. Yes, they were. 18 Q. Who retained your services at Local 1001? 19 A. The Board or Council. I'm not certain how 20 they're referred to. 21 Q. Does the Local Executive Board sound correct 22 to you? 23 A. Yes, that sounds correct. 24 Q. What did the Local 1001's Executive Board 25 hire you to do?
813
1 A. They wanted me to investigate some 2 allegations that were made against Bruno Caruso who my 3 understanding was the head of the Local at that time. 4 Q. And when you say asked you to investigate, 5 they wanted you to determine basically whether or not 6 there were any substance or validity to the 7 allegations. Would that be correct? 8 A. That's correct. 9 Q. And once the decision was made by the 10 Executive Board to retain you, were you given any 11 direction from the Board as to how you should proceed 12 with your investigation? 13 A. No, not really, sir. 14 Q. You were free to proceed any way you deemed 15 fit; is that correct? 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. Okay. And did anyone from the Executive 18 Board ever try to prevent you from pursuing certain 19 lines of your investigation. 20 A. No, absolutely not. 21 Q. Did anyone on the Executive Board ever tell 22 you not to interview certain people. 23 A. Absolutely not. 24 Q. Did anyone on the Executive Board ever try to 25 impede your investigation in any way?
814
1 A. No. No, sir. 2 Q. So in short, you had totally free reign to 3 proceed however you deemed appropriate. 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. And did the Executive Board cooperate with 6 you fully during this investigation. 7 A. Yes, sir, they did. 8 Q. Turning now to the specifics of the 9 investigation of Mr. Caruso. Can you describe for Mr. 10 Vaira the investigation you undertook with regard to 11 Mr. Caruso. 12 A. Well I was given the, and I'm not certain 13 it's the right, charges or allegations, the document 14 that enumerated certain charges against Mr. Caruso, and 15 was asked to see if I could confirm or refute what was 16 presented in that document. 17 Q. And did you make any requests for information 18 from certain agencies? 19 A. I did contact numerous agencies, whether it 20 was telephone or letter, to see if we could get 21 information on these people. Most of the individuals 22 -- well a number of them were not named, and then those 23 that were I think were either deceased or were in the 24 Witness Protection Program, so obviously they weren't 25 accessible to me.
815
1 Q. When you say "not named", you mean 2 confidential informants? 3 A. Yes, as I recall. 4 Q. If I'm correct, you contacted the FBI for 5 information, correct? 6 A. We sent them a letter, yes, sir. 7 Q. And did you receive any documents from the 8 FBI? 9 A. I did not, sir. 10 Q. And you conducted different interviews, am I 11 correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Can you just walk us through briefly some of 14 the interviews you conducted. 15 A. Well as far as interviewing -- I interviewed 16 people who worked with Mr. Caruso, some City Council 17 members, some business -- people in business, maybe 18 even a priest as I recall. As far as the individuals 19 from the allegations, I really wasn't able to speak to 20 any of them, so my investigation for the most part 21 consisted of just digging -- not digging up, wrong 22 word, but developing information regarding him because 23 most of them had some history, whether it was criminal 24 or in the court system, and so I would gather that 25 information and review it and try to maybe make a
816
1 judgment as to whether they're being credible or not. 2 Q. And when you say you weren't able, that was 3 -- strike that. 4 I believe one of your requests you tried to 5 interview one of the informants who was in prison in 6 Wyoming, am I correct? 7 A. Yes. I think it was the Wyoming Department 8 of Corrections. I think I asked, and I don't even know 9 if they responded to me to be honest, sir. 10 Q. And approximately how long did you spend on 11 this investigation? 12 A. I think it was a better part of a year, from 13 January of '99 through the end of '99, perhaps into 14 2000. I'm not certain. 15 Q. And after you concluded your investigation, 16 what did you do next? 17 A. I had a meeting with the Board and pretty 18 much told them that I -- I presented them the -- a lot 19 of the documentation that I had come up with regarding 20 this individual, and I told them that I really couldn't 21 make a -- come to a conclusion one way or the other. I 22 just felt that I didn't have the information to say 23 that these people were being truthful or that the 24 information was accurate. So I pretty much said that I 25 couldn't go beyond that.
817
1 Q. And the reason you couldn't reach this 2 conclusion was because of your inability to get this -- 3 MR. THOMAS: Objection. 4 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Let him 5 finish. Let him finish it. 6 MR. THOMAS: Hold the answer. 7 MR. MENDENHALL: I would ask for the courtesy 8 to be allowed to finish my question before Mr. Thomas 9 objects and interrupts. 10 MR. THOMAS: It was clear on the face of the 11 question that it had to be leading because he was 12 completing the "because" part of the question. 13 MR. MENDENHALL: I would still like to have 14 professional courtesy, and I will extend the same to 15 him. 16 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Gentlemen, 17 I can recognize a speech when I see one. Go ahead. 18 Ask your question. 19 BY MR. MENDENHALL: 20 Q. And Mr. Rea, what were the reasons you were 21 unable to report to the Executive Board with a 22 definitive conclusion as to Bruno Caruso. 23 A. Again, because the witnesses were unavailable 24 through one form or another, not knowing their 25 identity, or they were protected witnesses or they were
818
1 probably deceased. 2 MR. MENDENHALL: Thank you. I have nothing 3 further, Mr. Rea. 4 CROSS EXAMINATION 5 BY 6 MR. THOMAS: 7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Rea. How are you? 8 A. I am fine, sir. How are you? 9 Q. Just so I understand. Are you testifying 10 here today in any way concerning the Local 1001 11 Trusteeship? 12 A. Not to my knowledge. I don't know. 13 Q. So you've been called by the Local to talk 14 about what you did in preparation for the Bruno Caruso 15 hearing. 16 A. Yes, sir. 17 Q. But you have nothing to say about the 18 allegations of the pending complaint. 19 A. I do not. 20 MR. THOMAS: No questions then. 21 MR. MENDENHALL: You may be excused, Mr. Rea. 22 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, 23 Mr. Rea. 24 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 25 (Witness excused.)
819
1 MR. MENDENHALL: Mr. Vaira -- never mind. 2 Never mind. 3 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: You may 4 tell me the relevance of the testimony. 5 MR. MENDENHALL: I want to make sure he 6 leaves before Mr. Thomas tries to call him back. Mr. 7 O'Rourke sat on that -- Mr. O'Rourke sat on that -- 8 never mind. 9 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I think I 10 get the relevance of it. You can give it to me later. 11 MR. MENDENHALL: Okay. 12 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Every now 13 and then occasions occur, and there are famous stories 14 of lawyers summing up the jury and saying, "Now when 15 Mr. Jones testified when I brought him here, I bet you 16 wondered why I called him," and the jury went like 17 this, you know. And he says, "Now I'm going to tell 18 you why." I pretty much know what you're talking 19 about. Go ahead. 20 MR. THOMAS: But his answer stands that he 21 has nothing to say about this complaint. 22 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: His answer 23 stands. I mean that's it. His answer stands. 24 MR. THOMAS: I'm trying this case, not that 25 one.
820
1 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I hope so. 2 All right. All right. Where are we going now? 3 MR. MENDENHALL: At this time we would like 4 to call Kitty Kurth. 5 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: The young 6 lady will swear you in here. 7 (Witness duly sworn.) 8 KITTY KURTH, 9 called as a witness herein, having first been duly 10 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 11 EXAMINATION 12 BY 13 MR. MENDENHALL: 14 Q. Good afternoon, Miss Kurth. Can you please 15 state your full and spell your last name for the court 16 reporter? 17 A. Yes. My given name is Kathryn Kurth, but 18 professionally I use Kitty Kurth. And my last name is 19 spelled K-u-r-t-h. 20 Q. And how are you currently employed, Miss 21 Kurth? 22 A. I am the president of Kurth Lampe Political 23 Consulting and Public Relations Firm here in Chicago. 24 Q. When was Kurth Lampe founded? 25 A. In 1996.
821
1 Q. And what kind of work does your company do? 2 A. We do a lot of campaign and election 3 training. We work with candidates. We work with a lot 4 of non-profits and Labor Unions and environmental 5 groups, women's groups. 6 Q. And prior to you founding -- being one of the 7 co-founders of Kurt Lampe, how were you employed? 8 A. In 1996 I worked for the LIUNA election 9 office for Professor Steven Goldberg. 10 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: What year? 11 THE WITNESS: '96. 12 BY MR. MENDENHALL: 13 Q. And at some point in time did you own any 14 other -- 15 A. Yes. Since 1983 I've had basically the same 16 sort of business. I changed the name in '96 when my 17 husband joined the business. 18 Q. And what is your educational background, Miss 19 Kurth? 20 A. I went to the University of Virginia in 21 Charlottesville, Virginia. 22 Q. Did you obtain a degree? 23 A. Yes, in History. 24 Q. Would that be a Bachelor's? 25 A. Bachelor's, yes.
822
1 Q. Since owning Kurt Lampe and its predecessors, 2 have you had the opportunity to work on Labor Union and 3 election matters? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. We're going to take them individually. Let's 6 start first with election matters. Can you briefly 7 describe for us your election experience. 8 A. In -- since my -- my entire professional 9 career I've worked on campaigns and elections first as 10 a poll watcher, then consultant. I've done election 11 and campaign training for groups ranging from the 12 Independent Voters of Illinois, the Democratic National 13 Committee, Women's Campaign Fund, National Women's' 14 Political Caucus, state parties of a couple of states, 15 and the Center for Campaign Leadership hired me to 16 teach ethical practices in campaigns. 17 I've been sent by the State Department to 18 both India and Uganda to talk about campaign and 19 election procedures and free and fair and democratic 20 and transparent elections. 21 Q. Have you had the opportunity to work on any 22 presidential campaigns? 23 A. Yes. I first worked on the Dukakis campaign 24 in 1988. Then in 1992 on the Songas and Clinton/Gore 25 campaigns, and in '96 and 2000 for Clinton and for
823
1 Gore, and Ron Brown's campaign for Democratic National 2 Committee Chair. 3 Q. What positions were you serving in in those 4 capacities? Can you just give us a brief synopsis. 5 A. Sure. I've worked on everything from press 6 secretary to fund raiser to field organizer to campaign 7 manager, general consultant, media consultant. 8 Q. What I would like to do now, ma'am, is direct 9 your attention to your experience with Labor Unions in 10 particular. Okay? 11 A. Um-hum. 12 Q. What Labor Unions have you worked with? 13 A. I've worked for LIUNA in 1996. As I said, I 14 worked with the LIUNA election office for Professor 15 Goldberg. I was Executive Director hired by Professor 16 Goldberg but with the approval of the GEB Attorney and 17 the Department of Justice. 18 Q. Okay. Any other Labor Unions you have worked 19 with? 20 A. Yes. I've worked with the Steel Workers, the 21 Chicago Federation of Labor, SAGAFTRA. 22 Q. And what is SAGAFTRA? 23 A. Recently we worked with -- it's the Screen 24 Actors Guild and the American Federation of Television 25 Radio Artists. And recently we worked with them here
824
1 in Chicago when Channel 5, WMAQ, bought Channel 44, the 2 Telemundo station, which is the Hispanic station. And 3 despite the fact that they were combining the news 4 rooms, they did not want the Hispanic employees to be 5 represented by the Union. And we worked with the 6 Hispanic employees on organizing for their right to 7 have an election and to finally get an NLRB, National 8 Labor Relations Board, election so that they could 9 indeed organize. 10 Q. I would like to direct your attention now to 11 LIUNA specifically. And I believe you stated you were 12 first -- your first work you performed on behalf of 13 LIUNA was in 1996 as the Executive Director; I'm I 14 correct? 15 A. Yes, the LIUNA election office. 16 Q. And you were hired, I believe you said, by 17 Professor Goldberg? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And what his position? 20 A. He was the Election Officer. 21 Q. And did anyone have to approve Professor 22 Goldberg's decision to hire you? 23 A. It was my understanding that both the GEB 24 Attorney and the Department of Justice had to approve 25 my hiring.
825
1 Q. And what were your primary responsibilities 2 as the Executive Director of the LIUNA election office? 3 A. I organized and sort of oversaw all of the 4 election office activities. We had executive directors 5 -- I'm sorry. Election Officers regionally and adjunct 6 Election Officers. I worked with Professor Goldberg to 7 write the rules and the Local Election Office handbook. 8 We conducted elections in every Local Union for a 9 delegate to the International convention and then 10 worked at the convention on the International -- on the 11 election of officers at the International level. 12 Q. And were you -- and were part of your duties 13 to ensure that the election process was free, fair, and 14 transparent? 15 A. Yes, that was our duty. 16 Q. And also to make sure that the process was 17 open? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And that the membership was able to vote 20 freely? 21 A. Yes. To vote freely and also to understand 22 the process. We conducted trainings across the country 23 for Local Unions so that they would know how to conduct 24 a free and fair election. We also had an 800 number so 25 that any Union member who had questions about the
826
1 process would have a place to call. 2 Q. And did you have occasion to prepare any 3 rules relating to the election. 4 A. I worked with Professor Goldberg on the rules 5 for the election and for the convention. 6 Q. Have you had occasion to work for LIUNA since 7 1996, Miss Kurth? 8 A. Yes. In 2001 I served as a consultant to the 9 Election Office. 10 Q. And what were your duties and 11 responsibilities in that regard? 12 A. I worked with them to help set up the 13 processes and go through how the Election Office was 14 going to be managed and used, and then consulted with 15 them from time to time throughout the election on 16 questions that arose about elections, about how we had 17 done things in the past, and then worked with them to 18 -- on the convention and the -- we thought -- the 19 possibility that there would be an election at the 20 convention. 21 Q. And directing your attention now to Local 22 1001. Have you had occasion to work for Local 1001, 23 Miss Kurth? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And when was your company Kurt Lampe retained
827
1 by Local 1001? 2 A. In the spring of 2003. I believe it was 3 April. 4 Q. And what was your company retained to do, 5 ma'am? 6 A. To work with them to oversee their election, 7 the same way that the election office did for the 8 International, to make sure it was a free and fair 9 process. 10 Q. And prior to being retained by Local 1001, 11 did your firm make a presentation to Local 1001's 12 Executive Board? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And if you could, ma'am, if you could take a 15 look at the group of exhibits marked Local 1001 16 Exhibits. If you can take a look at Exhibit 16 and let 17 me know when you got there. 18 A. I've got it. 19 Q. Can you please turn to page bate stamped L87? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you have that, ma'am? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And is this a true and correct copy of your 24 proposal? 25 A. Yes.
828
1 Q. And can you just walk us through very briefly 2 the scope of the work you were proposing for the Board. 3 A. The scope of the work that we proposed was to 4 work with the Election Judges at the Local and conduct 5 the election in a free and fair and open process and to 6 ensure that everything that we did was within the 7 guidelines of the Local Union Constitution provisions 8 for the election and the handbooks that the judges had 9 been given at previous trainings. 10 Q. And was this proposal -- strike that. You 11 were subsequently hired by the Local, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And if you would turn with me to Exhibit 20 14 and let me know when you have made it there. 15 A. I'm there. 16 Q. And is Exhibit 20 a true and correct copy of 17 the agreement between your company and Local 1001 for 18 your services? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What I would like to do now, Miss Kurth, is 21 turn specifically to your duties and responsibilities 22 regarding work you've done for the Local. 23 From your prior testimony it appears that 24 your primary duty was to ensure that the elections were 25 free, fair, and in a Democratic process I believe you
829
1 stated? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. And who from your company was responsible for 4 fulfilling these obligations? 5 A. I was primarily responsible, but I also 6 engaged the services of Mary Eileen Sullivan who had 7 been -- who had worked in the LIUNA election office in 8 2001, Vasyl Markus, who is an election attorney that we 9 work with here in Chicago, and Kevin Lampe who works 10 for Kurt Lampe and served as an observer for the 11 election in 19 -- for the LIUNA election in 1996. 12 Q. So two thirds of your staff that assisted 13 with this -- with Local 1001's election had also 14 assisted with the International election. 15 A. Yes, either in '96 or 2001. 16 Q. And then a third individual was actually an 17 elections lawyer I believe you testified. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. In preparing yourself to run Local 1001's 20 election, did you review any materials concerning Local 21 1001's prior elections? 22 A. Yes, we reviewed the minutes of previous 23 elections. 24 Q. And did you notice anything unusual about 25 those minutes.
830
1 A. No. 2 Q. Did you notice anything in the minutes that 3 led you to believe that the elections were not free, 4 fair, or transparent. 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did you notice anything within these minutes 7 that would lead you to believe that these elections 8 were somehow influenced by organized crime? 9 A. No. 10 Q. I would like to turn now, ma'am, to 11 specifically the work you did in preparing for the 12 nomination meeting. Can you please walk us through 13 that? 14 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: What year? 15 MR. MENDENHALL: This is still Local 1001 16 2003 election. 17 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Go ahead. 18 BY MR. MENDENHALL: 19 Q. Go ahead, ma'am. 20 A. We first went through and read the Local 21 Union Constitution sections with respect to elections 22 and the Local Union handbook to get all the guidelines 23 and rules and timelines that we had to meet and then 24 prepared a timeline for the election. And we next met 25 with the Election Judges to go over the rules and the
831
1 timeline and then worked on -- do you want me to keep 2 going or -- 3 Q. Continue. And when you're done I have a 4 couple of follow-up questions. But go ahead. 5 A. I believe the next step was we prepared the 6 nomination meeting notice and then we worked with the 7 Local Union to examine their membership list and labels 8 and make sure that every paid member -- that a label 9 was printed out for them so that the nomination meeting 10 notice could be mailed to them. 11 Q. If you would, Miss Kurth, can you turn with 12 me to Exhibit 21? And let me know when you're there. 13 A. I'm there. 14 Q. And is Exhibit 21 a true and correct copy of 15 your memo to the Local outlining the tasks you were to 16 perform that you just mentioned for us? 17 A. Yes, the timeline. 18 Q. You also testified that in order to get out 19 the notice, you worked with Local 1001 in terms of 20 retrieving records to get the list for the members; am 21 I correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And during that process did you have a chance 24 to become familiar with Local 1001's computer records. 25 A. Yes.
832
1 Q. And how so? 2 A. We visited the Local and were shown on 3 computer the way that the membership records were kept 4 and how the lists were going to be created, who -- what 5 members were on the lists. 6 Q. And what if any impressions did you get from 7 that? 8 A. Actually I was really surprised and impressed 9 because their membership was in much better shape than 10 most of the Local Union membership lists that I had 11 seen in the past. 12 Q. And did you find the information available 13 computer user friendly? 14 A. Very. 15 Q. Directing your attention now to the specific 16 nomination meeting on May 11th, 2003, okay? 17 A. Um-hum. 18 Q. Before the nomination meeting began, can you 19 explain to us some of the tasks your staff was doing? 20 A. We met with the Election Judges again that 21 morning to go over the rules of the election per the 22 handbook, and then I asked my staff to just sort of 23 hang around the parking lot and the entrance to the 24 meeting to make sure that everyone was being allowed 25 in, to see that there was no obstructing people going
833
1 in for balloting. 2 Q. And did they notice any obstruction? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Everybody who wanted to come in were -- was 5 free and did in fact come in, correct? 6 A. To the best of my knowledge. 7 Q. Once inside the meeting did you have an 8 opportunity to observe the atmosphere? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What can you tell us in that regard? 11 A. I was -- there was a good turnout. Members 12 seemed to be enthusiastic about being there and being 13 able to vote. 14 Q. What was your best approximation of the 15 number of members that attended that nomination 16 meeting. 17 A. I would say approximately 250. It was a full 18 room in the -- the first floor area and then there was 19 also a full balcony. 20 Q. And how did this meeting start? 21 A. I believe President Gibson called it to order 22 and went through the routine business of the meeting. 23 And then the first -- my first duties were to read 24 aloud the referendum relative to salaries of the 25 officers.
834
1 Q. And after this was done, what was the next 2 step you took. 3 A. Well the members voted on it, and then we -- 4 I believe the next step was to read the eligibility 5 requirements for officers and the eligibility 6 requirements for nominators. 7 Q. And then what happened next? 8 A. And then we went through the nomination 9 process. 10 Q. And can you walk us through how the 11 nomination process occurred. 12 A. We went through, in the order provided by 13 LIUNA, of asking for nominations for each office. We 14 asked for nominations several times. I tried to look 15 around the room to make sure that anyone who had their 16 hand raised or looked like they wanted to make a 17 nomination was called on. 18 Q. And so everyone present at the meeting was 19 free to in fact nominate a candidate for a particular 20 office? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And it sounds as if you particularly scanned 23 the room just to ensure that. 24 MR. THOMAS: Object to the leading, Mr. 25 Vaira.
835
1 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: You may ask 2 it. 3 THE WITNESS: I tried to make sure, since it 4 was such a crowded room and since there were people in 5 the balconies, that I tried to look -- and since the 6 nominations were by voice rather than another process, 7 I tried to make sure that everyone who wanted to be 8 recognized was recognized. 9 BY MR. MENDENHALL: 10 Q. And during this entire process did you 11 observe any intimidation or restrictions during the 12 process. 13 A. No. 14 Q. So can you now walk us through what happened 15 at the next step. 16 A. We went through nominations for each office, 17 and then the people that were -- both the people that 18 were nominated and the people that were the nominators 19 came up to the front. We had a copy of the membership 20 database available on laptop computer so that their 21 eligibility to nominate and their eligibility to hold 22 office could be checked at the meeting. 23 Q. And after that was done what happens next? 24 A. We verified the eligibility. There were four 25 candidates that did not have their -- copies of their
836
1 birth certificate with them which is one of the 2 requirements for eligibility. So the Election Judges 3 conferred and the membership voted that the candidates 4 should be allowed to have a brief period to fax the 5 birth certificates into the Local, and then we went 6 over -- later that week we went over to the Local to 7 examine the birth certificates and make sure that -- 8 with Election Judges to make sure that they met the 9 eligibility requirements. 10 Q. So these birth certificates were in fact 11 faxed to the Local. 12 A. To the Local. 13 Q. And after these birth certificates were 14 faxed, you were able to confirm and check the 15 information on them, correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. And after the candidates' eligibility 18 was -- 19 A. I'm sorry. Just for the record it could be 20 either a birth certificate or a passport according to 21 the Constitution. 22 Q. Thank you for clarifying that. 23 And after the candidates' eligibility was 24 confirmed, what happened next? 25 A. Then the -- per LIUNA rules the election is
837
1 to take place at the next scheduled membership meeting. 2 And in our case since the candidates that were 3 nominated were uncontested, then it was, what we call 4 it at the election office, an uncontested election. So 5 the nomination meeting became the election and then the 6 results were announced and officers were sworn in at 7 the next membership meeting. 8 Q. Miss Kurth, can you please take a look at 9 Exhibit 19 and let me know when you're there. 10 A. I'm there. 11 Q. And can you take as much time as you need and 12 just flip through Exhibit 19 and let me know when 13 you're done. 14 Miss Kurth, while you're reviewing that. My 15 question is going to be simply is that a true and 16 correct copy of a transcript of the meeting. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And Miss Kurth, during this entire meeting 19 did you observe any evidence of organized crime 20 influence over this nomination process. 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did anyone on your staff report to you any 23 evidence of alleged organized crime influence over the 24 process. 25 A. No.
838
1 Q. After this nomination meeting did any of the 2 observers prepare reports or letters with their 3 observations of the meeting? 4 A. Yes. I asked Vasyl Markus, our attorney, to 5 prepare a report and then I also prepared a report. 6 And -- I'm sorry. I neglected to mention that we had 7 -- in keeping with the practices of Local 1001, we had 8 a representative from the Illinois Department of Labor 9 attend the meeting and he also prepared a report. 10 Q. And was that gentleman's name -- would the 11 name of Wesley James refresh your recollection? 12 A. Yes, that's correct. 13 Q. And was that the gentleman from the Illinois 14 Department of -- 15 A. It was. 16 Q. That was the gentleman? 17 A. Yes, it was. 18 Q. And if you would turn with me to Exhibit 24. 19 And can you please let me know whether that is the 20 letter you referenced that Mr. James prepared 21 concerning the election. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And could you now turn with me to Exhibit 25 24 and let me know whether or not that is the report 25 prepared by Mr. Marcus.
839
1 A. Yes, it is. 2 Q. And did Mr. James or Mr. Markus ever report 3 to you that they saw any evidence of any organized 4 crime influence over the election. 5 A. No. 6 Q. Miss Kurth, in your opinion were Local 1001's 7 2003 elections open elections? 8 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Vaira, if I may. Is she 9 being asked as a fact witness or an expert witness? 10 She's never been proffered as an expert. Is this the 11 opinion of a fact witness? 12 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I'll let 13 her answer. She's been the Executive Director for two 14 International elections, and she can do it as a lay 15 person. 16 You may do it based upon your experience as 17 the Executive Director of two International elections. 18 MR. MENDENHALL: Can you repeat my question, 19 Madam Court Reporter? 20 (Record read.) 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 BY MR. MENDENHALL: 23 Q. Were the members free to run for any office 24 they chose? 25 A. If they were eligible.
840
1 Q. That's a yes? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And did the elections follow democratic 4 processes? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Was the election free, fair and transparent? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What are your observations on the 9 participation rate for Local 1001's 2003 election? 10 A. Based on my previous experience with LIUNA 11 Delegate elections, it was a pretty high rate of 12 participation. 13 MR. MENDENHALL: That's all I have, Mr. 14 Vaira. 15 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: May I ask 16 you a question? 17 When you were overseeing this election, you 18 said persons who could run if they were eligible. Who 19 determined the eligibility of the candidates? 20 THE WITNESS: The Election Judges and 21 observers from my staff. 22 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Do you know 23 the terminology, this is a rhetorical question, working 24 at the calling? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
841
1 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Did all of 2 the candidates -- were all of the candidates working at 3 the calling? 4 THE WITNESS: Well according to the LIUNA 5 Constitution if you're a member -- 6 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: That's not 7 answering my question. Were they working at the 8 calling. 9 THE WITNESS: According to the LIUNA 10 Constitution. 11 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: You made an 12 observation and examined each one of them? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, that they were dues paying 14 members. 15 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: That 16 doesn't mean they were working at the calling. 17 THE WITNESS: That's what the LIUNA 18 Constitution says. 19 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Okay. All 20 right. Go ahead. 21 CROSS EXAMINATION 22 BY 23 MR. THOMAS: 24 Q. Miss Kurth, you and I have not met or spoken 25 before, have we?
842
1 A. I don't think so. 2 Q. My name is Bob Thomas and I'm representing 3 the International in these proceedings. 4 In response to Mr. Vaira's question you said 5 that you found all of the officer nominees to be 6 eligible, correct? 7 A. Um-hum. 8 Q. And specifically, as Mr. Vaira put it, you 9 found, as a matter of fact, that they were all working 10 at the calling; is that right? 11 A. According to the standard that we had used in 12 the International Delegate elections, that if they were 13 a member, they were working at the calling. 14 Q. And what's your understanding as it would 15 apply to a Locals like Local 1001? 16 A. According to the rules in the judge's 17 handbook and the Local Union Constitution, someone has 18 to be a dues paying member. And in order to be a 19 member you have to be working at the calling according 20 to another section in the Constitution. And I'm sorry, 21 I don't have my Constitution. 22 Q. And in the Local Union Constitution how does 23 it define working at the calling? 24 A. It says that you have to be a paid member. 25 Q. And is that all?
843
1 A. That's my recollection. 2 Q. Would you like to look at it? Did you look 3 at it at the time? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. Do you realize that it requires that 6 the person be actively employed either in the trade or 7 as an employee of the Local Union? 8 A. Yes, and they have to be a dues paying 9 member. 10 Q. Um-hum. So let me ask you: With respect to 11 -- does the name James Capasso mean anything to you? 12 A. I remember that he was one of the people 13 elected. 14 Q. So he was one of the people nominated and 15 elected, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And you made a finding before his being 18 nominated and elected, you and your staff, that he was 19 eligible, correct? 20 A. To the best of our ability. 21 Q. To the best of your ability. 22 A. Which is by looking at the membership lists. 23 Q. All right. But other than the fact that he 24 paid dues, how was he working at the calling? 25 A. The only way in the Local Union elections for
844
1 a Delegate and for this election that we have as 2 election officers, is if someone is a dues paying 3 member. And I also remembered seeing him as a Delegate 4 in 1996 and 2001. 5 Q. A Delegate to what? 6 A. The convention. 7 Q. A Delegate to the convention. 8 A. Correct. 9 Q. What does that mean with respect to -- 10 A. That -- 11 Q. Wait a minute. Wait until the end of the 12 question. 13 What does that mean with respect to his 14 working either as an employee at Local 1001 or as a 15 laborer? 16 A. It means that the International found him to 17 be an eligible candidate for Delegate. 18 Q. For Delegate to that election process you 19 talked about. 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. I'm talking about his eligibility to be an 22 officer of Local 1001. Do you understand that they're 23 different? 24 A. No, actually they're not different in that 25 for a Delegate you have to be working at the calling
845
1 and be a dues paying member is my recollection of our 2 election rules. 3 Q. Those are two different things, aren't they? 4 A. How can you be a dues paying member if you're 5 not working at the calling? I'm sorry. I don't 6 understand your question. 7 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Is that 8 your answer? 9 THE WITNESS: I don't understand the 10 question. 11 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Your answer 12 is that if you're a dues paying member, then you're 13 working at the calling. 14 THE WITNESS: It says that in order to be a 15 member you have to be working at the calling. I'm 16 sorry. I don't understand. 17 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I accept 18 your answer. Thank you. 19 MR. MENDENHALL: Mr. Vaira, I think the 20 record is clear on this and we can move on past this 21 point. 22 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Gentlemen, 23 I was an Election Officer for this Union for a number 24 of years. I handled your appeal that came from Mr. 25 Goldberg's office and I understand what working at the
846
1 calling is. 2 MR. MENDENHALL: Exactly. 3 BY MR. THOMAS: 4 Q. Did you actually read the Local Union 5 Constitution before this election? 6 MR. MENDENHALL: Objection. Asked and 7 answered, Mr. Vaira. 8 BY MR. THOMAS: 9 Q. Did you read it? 10 A. Yes. 11 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I think 12 he's entitled to ask this question, gentlemen. Working 13 at the calling, it's there and it's pretty much spelled 14 out. If he wants to pursue it, he wants to pursue it. 15 She has one definition and I think he disagrees with 16 it. 17 BY MR. THOMAS: 18 Q. Did you talk to the nominees -- you or your 19 staff talk to any of these people to determine whether 20 they were working at the calling. 21 A. No. 22 Q. So you didn't speak to Mr. Capasso about what 23 he was doing to be eligible to be considered working at 24 the calling. 25 A. No. I just knew him to be somebody who
847
1 worked for the Union. 2 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Where do 3 Judges of Election come in? Where did the Judges of 4 Election come in in this process? 5 THE WITNESS: The Judges of Election were 6 working checking the eligibility of the candidates and 7 they judged them to be eligible. 8 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Then you 9 accepted that. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. Do you mean physically or 11 procedure wise? 12 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: In the 13 rules of a Local election, the Judges of Election have 14 to qualify. You have to walk over and somehow or 15 another you have to decide -- give them your book or 16 whatever else. And they'll say yeah or nay. Now, when 17 you found that out, when somebody said, "This person is 18 working at the calling," did you inquire any further? 19 THE WITNESS: No. 20 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Okay. All 21 right. 22 THE WITNESS: And just to clarify. Just to 23 explain how we did it. We had the Judges of Election 24 with the membership lists and a member of our staff 25 checking each nominator and candidate.
848
1 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Okay. 2 BY MR. THOMAS: 3 Q. Miss Kurth, did any of the judges interview 4 any of these people to your knowledge. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So someone actually spoke, for example, to 7 Mr. Capasso? 8 A. Yes. Each candidate and nominator came up 9 person by person to meet with the judges. 10 Q. Do you know -- were you there when Mr. 11 Capasso was interviewed by the judges? 12 A. I was actually -- they were sort of at a 13 table down here and I was up on the stage. 14 Q. Do you know what he was asked on this 15 question? 16 A. No. 17 Q. So if I got your answer correctly a moment 18 ago, you said you understood him to be working for the 19 Union or words to that effect? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Why did you understand that? What was the 22 basis of that? 23 A. Because he had been present at the meetings 24 that I had been to. He was on the -- I believe he was 25 on the District Council, and like I said, he had been a
849
1 Delegate in the past. 2 Q. Did you know that he was working full-time 3 for a third party? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Is that the first -- is today the first time 6 you've heard that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Would it surprise you to know that he was the 9 full-time Administrator for the City of Chicago Pension 10 Fund and had been for well over ten years? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. When you chatted with the attorneys prior to 13 your testifying here today, did anyone mention that 14 fact to you? 15 A. No. 16 MR. MENDENHALL: Objection. 17 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: He may seek 18 to determine the basis of her evaluation. 19 MR. MENDENHALL: I just object to the form of 20 the question. 21 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: That's 22 fine. That's fine. 23 BY MR. THOMAS: 24 Q. Miss Kurth, you were hired in, I think you 25 indicated, the spring of 2003; is that right?
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1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And specifically you were hired to oversee 3 the upcoming election, right? 4 A. To work with the Election Judges and oversee 5 the election, yes. 6 Q. And how did the request actually come in to 7 you? Who made the call? 8 A. I believe that attorney Faraci called me. 9 Q. Um-hum. And did he or anyone else give you 10 any context as to why you were being called in for 11 this? 12 A. Yes. They were familiar with my work in the 13 election office in 2001 and '96. 14 Q. Just to be clear though, your prior work had 15 not involved anything specifically for Local 1001, 16 correct? 17 A. No, but I worked with every Local in the 18 Union in those two years. 19 Q. Understood. But not in the capacity of 20 overseeing their actual elections. 21 A. Working with the attorneys that oversaw their 22 actual election and because of proximity of the 23 election office being in Chicago, we had been observers 24 for pieces of the Presidential election in '96 and also 25 the Delegate elections.
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1 Q. Okay. But I'm just trying to clarify the 2 role. This is the first time that you had actually 3 been called in to oversee a Local 1001 election, 4 correct? 5 A. Yes, sir. 6 Q. You had some contact with them in more of 7 the-- 8 A. In the International elections. 9 Q. In the International level. Talking to all 10 the constituent Locals here in the area. 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. So you were not involved in the, if I'm right 13 on the dates, that any 1999 election -- I may have the 14 dates wrong. 15 MR. MENDENHALL: Mr. Thomas, I can help you 16 out there. 17 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Gentlemen, 18 elections -- 19 MR. MENDENHALL: It's every four years, 20 public employees. Three years otherwise, Mr. Vaira. 21 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Okay. 22 BY MR. THOMAS: 23 Q. Do you know when the most recent election of 24 Local 1001 was? 25 A. Four years ago.
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1 Q. 1999 or 2000? 2 A. Four years ago, '99. 3 Q. '99. You were not involved in that 4 specifically. 5 A. No. 6 Q. And then the previous one to that would have 7 been 1995; is that right? 8 A. Um-hum. 9 Q. Pre-dating your involvement. 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. So by definition you couldn't have been 12 involved in the '95 one and you were not involved in 13 the '99 one. 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. Did anyone tell you in preparing for your 16 role here that there had been conversations with the 17 International about putting the Local under supervision 18 or Trusteeship? 19 A. Well they said there was going to be a 20 hearing. 21 Q. No. I'm not talking about in the past few 22 days coming to testify. When you were hired in the 23 spring of 2003, had anyone told you that the 24 International was seeking to impose a Trusteeship or 25 supervision over the Local.
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1 A. No. 2 Q. So no one gave you any background that there 3 had been conversations between Mr. Luskin, the GEB 4 Attorney, and the Local in that regard; is that right? 5 A. No. 6 Q. And no one told you anything about the fact 7 that those discussions involved allegations of 8 organized crime involvement and allegations of 9 undemocratic practices. 10 A. No. There were articles in the paper here to 11 that effect. 12 Q. Understood. But no one from the Local said 13 anything that your role had anything to do with those 14 conversations. 15 A. No. They said my role was to hold a free, 16 open, and fair democratic election. 17 Q. And do you have any understanding of why you 18 were not asked to do that in 1999. 19 MR. MENDENHALL: Objection. 20 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I don't 21 know if that's -- how relevant that is. I sustain that 22 objection. 23 BY MR. THOMAS: 24 Q. In the instructions that came to you in 2003, 25 were there any indications that part of the reason you
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1 were being hired here is because the Local was under 2 specific scrutiny by the International. 3 A. I'm sorry. Instructions from whom? 4 MR. MENDENHALL: Objection. 5 BY MR. THOMAS: 6 Q. From your client, Local 1001. 7 A. No. 8 Q. Had you seen any of the prior draft, 9 Trusteeship complaints that the International had shown 10 to the Local? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Mr. Mendenhall asked you if you had looked 13 back at some of the old minutes of nomination meetings 14 and elections and whether you've reached any 15 conclusions on that. Do you recall that? 16 A. He asked me if I looked at them. 17 Q. And I think he asked you and you answered 18 whether you looked at those, whether anything in those 19 minutes that would suggest that they weren't free, 20 fair, free of organized crime influence, and you 21 indicated that everything seemed to be just fine as far 22 as you could tell. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Have you since learned or at any point have 25 you learned that the minutes that you looked back at
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1 were minutes of a Local that was controlled by someone 2 who has been found to be an organized crime associate? 3 Did you know that? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Mr. Caruso? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. So by your own observation then someone with 8 ties to organized crime can be head of a Local and the 9 paperwork relating to elections can still look 10 perfectly normal, right? 11 MR. MENDENHALL: Objection. 12 THE WITNESS: I can't answer that. 13 BY MR. THOMAS: 14 Q. Isn't that your direct experience? 15 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I missed 16 that question. 17 BY MR. THOMAS: 18 Q. By your own observation -- let me ask you to 19 take it as a fact that Mr. Caruso has been found to be 20 an organized crime associate and kicked out of the 21 Union as a result, okay? That's a fact. 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. If minutes that you looked at were minutes of 24 elections that took place under his period of being 25 Business Manager at the Local, by that fact alone --
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1 A. Um-hum. 2 Q. -- it can mean that election processes at a 3 Local that is lead by someone like that can appear to 4 be normal, right? 5 MR. MENDENHALL: Objection. 6 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: That's an 7 argument, and that's something for me to decide. 8 BY MR. THOMAS: 9 Q. Let me rephrase it if I could. 10 MR. MENDENHALL: Continuing objection to this 11 line of questioning. 12 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Let me hear 13 the question. 14 MR. THOMAS: I haven't asked the question 15 yet. 16 BY MR. THOMAS: 17 Q. What would you expect to see in the minutes 18 if there were organized crime involvement? 19 MR. MENDENHALL: Same objection. 20 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: She may 21 answer. That's a fair question. 22 THE WITNESS: I looked at the minutes to see 23 how Judge Leighton had conducted the meeting. The 24 minutes seemed to be by the process outlined in both -- 25 in the Constitution and in the -- I'm sorry, Mr. Vaira.
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1 It's the Local Union's handbook. I don't know exactly 2 what it's called. 3 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: It's called 4 The Judges of Elections Handbook. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 6 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: And that 7 was put out -- when did it come out? 8 THE WITNESS: It was very similar the Local 9 Union Election Guide that we had written for the 10 Delegate election. 11 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Not quite. 12 Not quite. 13 THE WITNESS: But I get the name wrong. So 14 The Judges of Election -- it went by The Judges of 15 Election, by the guidelines, outlines. 16 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: There's a 17 book -- a Judge's Handbook put out by the International 18 Union that's put out at least in the last four years. 19 BY MR. THOMAS: 20 Q. I want to go back to what the question was. 21 If you're -- you're not one of these people 22 that says organized crime doesn't exist, are you? 23 A. No. I live in Chicago. I grew up in the 24 western suburbs. Every other kid in my high school was 25 alleged to be a known associate of organized crime.
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1 (Applause.) 2 That doesn't mean everyone with an Italian name -- 3 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Come on. 4 Come on. Answer the question. 5 BY MR. THOMAS: 6 Q. And you're familiar with -- 7 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: All right, 8 guys. Calm it down here. Go ahead. 9 BY MR. THOMAS: 10 Q. And you're familiar with the concept of labor 11 racketeering, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So the point -- one of the points of having 14 election supervisors and so forth is to make sure to 15 the extent possible you preserve the integrity of the 16 democratic process in the election process, right? 17 A. Yes. And one of the reasons I agreed to work 18 with Local 1001 was because during the 1996 election 19 when Bruno Caruso ran for president against Arthur Coia 20 at the International level, all of my dealings with the 21 members of Local 1001 they had been -- they had wanted 22 to participate by the rules. They were concerned with 23 doing everything by the rules, and by the way that 24 LIUNA set out for us to conduct the International 25 election.
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1 Q. Okay. But just going back to what the 2 original question was. If you were to look at minutes, 3 old minutes from a time period when it's been found 4 that the Local was at least headed by an organized 5 crime associate, what would you expect to see in the 6 minutes that would say, "Ah, this must be an organized 7 crime Local." 8 MR. MENDENHALL: Objection. Assumes that she 9 would expect to see something. 10 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Make it -- 11 remove it from Local 1001. If you looked at anything 12 in this -- 13 BY MR. THOMAS: 14 Q. Let me back up. 15 Mr. Mendenhall asked you very specifically, 16 and you answered the question, "Did you look at all 17 those old minutes?" You said, "Yes." And he said, 18 "Did you see anything in there that would suggest that 19 these weren't free and fair and free of organized crime 20 influence." Remember that? 21 A. I guess I would expect to see that there was 22 intimidation that had gone on, that there was some of 23 the kinds of dialogue that we had witnessed at other 24 Local Union elections in the -- during the 25 International for the Delegate elections.
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1 Q. And in a controlled -- in a Local Union that 2 is controlled by organized crime, are you saying that 3 people would actually write that down in the minutes? 4 MR. MENDENHALL: Objection. Argumentative. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 6 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Time out. 7 You're asking her what would she look for. What 8 indicia would she look for. And your question is what? 9 BY MR. THOMAS: 10 Q. In a Local that has a history of organized 11 crime influence, what would you expect to see in the 12 minutes that would jump out in response to what Mr. 13 Mendenhall -- 14 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: That's a 15 fair question. 16 MR. MENDENHALL: She spent about -- the past 17 five minutes answering that. Mr. Thomas is not happy 18 with the answer. He's not entitled to keep going on 19 and on with the same question until he gets a 20 satisfactory answer. 21 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: She may 22 answer it. Go ahead. 23 THE WITNESS: In the minutes of some of the 24 meetings that we had in '96 from Local Unions where 25 there was trouble, there were arguments, threats,
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1 intimidation, physical and verbal threats. And these 2 minutes didn't reflect any of that. 3 BY MR. THOMAS: 4 Q. Which were those Locals? 5 A. I believe it was the Buffalo Local. I don't 6 remember what the number was. 7 Q. Did you ever see anything like that, Local 2 8 here in Chicago? 9 A. No. 10 Q. 225? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Local 5? 13 A. Actually there weren't -- during our -- 14 during our Local Delegate elections I don't remember 15 seeing anything like that from the Chicago Locals. 16 Q. Okay. But -- and that's exactly where I want 17 to go with the question. 18 So the fact that the minutes alone don't 19 reflect that doesn't lead you to the conclusion, does 20 it, that therefore because the minutes don't reflect it 21 there can be no influence. 22 A. No. 23 Q. That's all I was getting at. 24 There was no evidence of contested -- there 25 was no contest in the 2003 election, was there?
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1 A. No. 2 Q. And in the old minutes that you looked at 3 there was no contest either, right? 4 A. No. 5 Q. And in fact as far back as you looked there's 6 never been a contest, right, in Local 1001. 7 A. As far back as I looked, but that was sort of 8 in keeping with the LIUNA tradition. There is a lot of 9 -- about two thirds of our Delegate elections were 10 uncontested, so I didn't see anything unusual with 11 that. 12 Q. How far back did you go? 13 A. Just to the most recent past election. 14 Q. So to '99? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. So the one you were looking at and the 17 one just prior. 18 A. Um-hum. 19 Q. And no evidence of any dissent in any of 20 those, correct, in any of those documents you looked 21 at? 22 A. No. 23 Q. And no evidence that anyone was questioning, 24 for example, the pension contributions that some of the 25 officers were getting, some of the unpaid officers.
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1 A. No. 2 Q. And no evidence of any dissent from clerical 3 staff who may have had -- who may have had their 4 pension contributions underfunded during that time 5 period. 6 A. Not in the minutes. 7 Q. Miss Kurth, what is the remedy if it turns 8 out that someone's been elected who turns out not to be 9 eligible and you find out after the fact that they're 10 not eligible? 11 A. Then there's another election. 12 Q. And how does that take place? 13 A. According to the rules in the Judge's 14 Election Handbook. 15 MR. THOMAS: Nothing further, Mr. Vaira. 16 MR. MENDENHALL: No redirect. 17 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Thank you, 18 ma'am. 19 (Witness excused.) 20 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: We'll take 21 a break. 22 (Whereupon a break was taken in 23 the proceedings after which the 24 following proceedings were had:) 25 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Ladies and
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1 gentlemen, back on the record. 2 Mr. Lydon, go right ahead. 3 MR. LYDON: We're calling as our next witness 4 James Capasso. 5 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Capasso 6 was here a couple weeks ago and he was sworn, and we 7 don't need to swear you in again, Mr. Capasso. You're 8 still under oath. 9 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 10 JAMES CAPASSO, 11 called as a witness herein, having previously been duly 12 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION 14 BY 15 MR. LYDON: 16 Q. Mr. Capasso, I don't intend to go over the 17 things that were already covered at the last session, 18 but have different questions for you and -- particular 19 questions for you on this occasion. 20 First of all, would you look at our Exhibit 21 Number 49? Local 1001 Exhibit 49. And in particular 22 do you see that this is the complaint for the 23 Trusteeship for Local 1001. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Have you had the opportunity to see this in
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1 the past? In particular, directing your attention to 2 page -- 3 A. Yes, yes. Yes, I have. 4 Q. Page 9. 5 A. Yes, I have. 6 Q. And I want to direct your attention in 7 particular to the allegation that appears on page 9. 8 Do you see that? Your name, first of all, appears 9 James Capasso, Jr. 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Are you James Capasso, Jr.? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And there is reference immediately beneath 14 that paragraph 32 about positions that you held in 15 Local 1001, and then there's a paragraph 33 that 16 alleges connection to organized crime. Do you see 17 that? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. Specifically paragraph 33 alleges that you 20 were involved in bookmaking activities for the Chicago 21 Outfit with James "Little Jimmy" Marcello. Is that 22 true or false? 23 A. Couldn't be more false, sir. 24 Q. Have you ever been involved in any bookmaking 25 activities of any sort?
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1 A. None whatsoever in my entire life. 2 Q. Are you -- so you've never engaged in taking 3 bets, correct? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. Have you ever been a bettor yourself? 6 A. Never. 7 Q. And James "Little Jimmy" Marcello is alleged 8 to be "a high ranking LCN figure," it says here, "who 9 is currently in federal prison," but according to Agent 10 O'Rourke who testified before he's now out. Do you 11 know anyone named James Marcello? 12 A. I had to know him because in the early 60's 13 he was an asphalt foreman for the City of Chicago, and 14 he -- 15 Q. Let's just -- 16 A. Okay. Go ahead. 17 Q. So you do know someone named James Marcello. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you've just gone further to say that he 20 was what? 21 A. He was an asphalt foreman for the City of 22 Chicago. 23 Q. When did you last have any contact with James 24 Marcello? 25 A. Probably when he left the City in either the
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1 fall of '69 or '70 when we separated him as a City 2 employee. 3 Q. What was the nature of or the interaction you 4 had with James Marcello prior to that time. 5 A. Prior to the time he was a City employee none 6 whatsoever. I didn't know the man. 7 Q. While he was a City employee, was that the 8 only contact you've ever had with him? 9 A. Yes, sir. 10 Q. While he was a City employee, can you explain 11 fully to Mr. Vaira all of the contacts you had with 12 this James Marcello. 13 A. Well he was an asphalt foreman for the 14 Department of Streets and Sanitation, Bureau of 15 Streets, Asphalt Section, and he supervised a number of 16 men on the street as an asphalt foreman. I was a 17 Supervising Timekeeper in the main office. I was doing 18 payrolls at that time. He would fill out a time sheet 19 with the stated hours that the men worked and he would 20 send that in to me. And he would call for various 21 information about the men on his -- in his charge. And 22 that's the only contact I had. 23 Q. What do you mean? What kind of calls about 24 the men in his charge? 25 A. First of all he would call for the men
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1 because we used to be able to give them their vacation 2 for the year, or maybe they would call in the morning 3 that a man was absent, because I was in Operations 4 also, and they had to call the work force in every 5 morning as to who showed up for work. So those are the 6 calls, entirely business calls, that he would make to 7 the office and maybe not to me in particular. 8 Q. Did you have any other contact of any sort 9 with James Marcello. 10 A. Never. 11 Q. So you never socialized with him while he was 12 a City employee? 13 A. Absolutely not. 14 Q. And you've never socialized with him at any 15 time before or since. 16 A. Absolutely, sir. 17 Q. Now it's also alleged here that you've been 18 identified as an organized crime associate. Is that 19 true or false? 20 A. False. 21 Q. Now going further. This afternoon we heard 22 some further testimony supposedly about you. And the 23 allegation was that you were closely associated with 24 someone named Rudy Fratto. Do you know that name? 25 A. I don't know that, sir.
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1 Q. You don't know anybody named Rudy Fratto. 2 A. No, sir. 3 Q. And to your knowledge never have? 4 A. No, sir. 5 Q. You have never known him. 6 A. I have never known him. 7 Q. What about someone named Joseph Andriacci. 8 Do you know anybody named -- 9 A. No, sir, I do not. 10 Q. Have you ever known anybody by that name? 11 A. No, I do not. 12 Q. The allegation was also made this afternoon 13 that you were beholding to something called the Elmwood 14 Park Crew. Have you ever heard anything like the 15 Elmwood Park Crew before? 16 A. Absolutely not, sir. 17 Q. Now are you personally aware of any influence 18 of organized crime over Local 1001 during the time that 19 you've been associated? 20 A. Absolutely not. 21 Q. Let me ask you some questions about your 22 employment. Why don't you briefly run through with us, 23 if you would, your work history starting when you first 24 became a member of 1001. 25 A. I first became a member in the summertime
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1 working on the City of Chicago as a laborer on repair. 2 And I worked the summers while I was in school, and 3 then in 1963 went full-time and went into the office at 4 the -- at 1533 South Ashland with the Asphalt Section, 5 Department of Streets and Sanitation, Bureau of 6 Streets. I went into the office as a -- because I had 7 passed the test and they finally posted the test, I 8 went in there as a civil service asphalt helper working 9 as an Assignment Clerk in charge of permits. These 10 permits are for street openings for base and top. When 11 contractors would open up the street, they would have 12 to put up a bond, take out a permit and put up the bond 13 and send that -- the City of Chicago would send that to 14 our office, permits, by permit number, addresses. I 15 would send them out, monitor the foremen that they had 16 to complete these in due process. They would send them 17 back to me. I would mark the sizes of the openings, 18 because it was either base or topping. Whether we had 19 to open it up, square it off a little better, and send 20 it back down to the City for processing because I 21 believe that some of those contractors, or whoever made 22 the street opening, would get a rebate on their bond. 23 At the same time I worked on the -- that's 24 when I started to break in on the Operations desk. 25 Q. Explain what you did in the Operations desk,
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1 and when was this? 2 A. That was in 1963, at the same time, because 3 after my journal entries were made I was able to sit on 4 the Operations desk with another partner of mine, and 5 what we did is field -- in the early morning, at eight 6 o'clock in the morning, the foremen from the street 7 would call in on their work force. "I have a foreman, 8 rakers, smoother, tamper, three or four helpers." They 9 would bring in their force report. And they would have 10 a mid morning call and then have a three o'clock call, 11 and in that way -- you know, we didn't have a lot of -- 12 what should I say? We didn't have a lot of two-way 13 radios at that time in the early 60's, so we depended 14 on the foremen calling up, calling up for more material 15 or calling up in -- at three o'clock when we had some 16 maybe important holes or street problems that we had to 17 talk to them about, or we would send out a supervisor 18 to go find them. 19 Q. What was the next position that you held? 20 A. In '64 there was -- my superintendent by the 21 name of Frank Kevel, he asked me to -- if I would 22 consider being a Supervising Timekeeper because the 23 timekeeper was leaving City service. I said yes. 24 Subsequent to that I took a civil service test, I think 25 it was at Crane High School, that the City held for
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1 Supervising Timekeeper. I passed the test. I served 2 my probation and became a civil service Supervising 3 Timekeeper doing the payroll for the Asphalt Section as 4 well as all of the personnel and reporting that has to 5 be sent downtown, and as well as still staying close to 6 Operations. I never left Operations. 7 Q. And continue on. What was your next 8 position? 9 A. Supervising Timekeeper. So that was in '64, 10 on Good Friday of 1966. I remember that because it was 11 Good Friday. We went over to 306 West 37th Street 12 because it was a bigger office and it was in the Bureau 13 of Equipment building. At that time I still was in -- 14 Supervising Timekeeper. 15 Basically there was another section called 16 the Mechanim (Phonetic) Department that dealt with WPA 17 Streets. We took them over. We went to 306 West 37th 18 Street because they had a bigger office, and we -- I 19 started there -- continued on as a Supervising 20 Timekeeper until such time as -- and I stayed with 21 Operations, took on more of reporting and 22 administrative until my title was changed. 23 Q. And when did that happen? 24 A. I want to say maybe in the very early 70's. 25 Q. What happened? What was your new title?
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1 A. My new title was -- again there was a -- 2 Administrative Assistant 3. And at that time I was 3 deemed qualified for that position by the City of 4 Chicago, and I served my probation and became a Career 5 Service Administrative Assistant 3. And at that time I 6 started to do more work on budgets and -- but my other 7 duties didn't wane. I still had those other duties, 8 but on top of it all of the reporting for personnel, 9 because I was the only one that did typing there, so I 10 had to do all of the reporting. 11 Q. What were these other duties that you're 12 talking about then? 13 A. They primarily focused on doing the payroll 14 for the Asphalt Department, doing the -- working with 15 Operations because I started at six o'clock in the 16 morning. And then after the crews were out, I went 17 back to my supervising duties -- Supervising Timekeeper 18 duties, and my partner and I, who shared an office for 19 20 years, would field questions from the field on an 20 ongoing basis all day long. But I took on more 21 responsibilities for the budget, working with the 22 Deputy Commissioner Robert Marzullo. I would do the 23 preliminaries and started to do budget work at that 24 time. And all of the reporting processes that had to 25 go downtown from our office to City Hall and that --
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1 for personnel, whatever the case may be, paperwork, I 2 did. 3 Q. All right. How long did you continue in 4 that? 5 A. I did that probably until -- I can't remember 6 the exact dates. I probably did it until the late 7 70's, at which time my title was changed by the City 8 again. 9 Q. To what? 10 A. To Director of Administration. 11 Q. And how long did you -- although your title 12 changed, what about the duties? 13 A. The duties I was -- I then had the full 14 responsibility of budgets, the full responsibility of 15 all of the paperwork for personnel, assigning personnel 16 to start work, assigning them to go out in their first 17 position on the street, starting to work with the 18 Budget Department downtown in creating budgets, in 19 creating performance measurements, because our 20 performance measurements are standard within the 21 industry, square yard, square feet, lineal feet, cubic 22 yards, and so on and so forth. And with that the 23 Director of Administration made me responsible for 24 that. Administrative Assistant, it was taking on more 25 responsibility. But when I became the Director of
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1 Administration, then it was on my shoulders and I 2 relieved the Superintendent to some degree. 3 Q. What about Operations? 4 A. Operations I never left. I was always in 5 charge with my partner, Sal Stillo, in Operations. We 6 never waned from that. Until the day I left the City 7 my hours were 6:00 to 4:30. 8 Q. Okay. Now did you also take on additional -- 9 let me ask you this question: From the time that you 10 started as an asphalt helper to the present time, have 11 you continuously at all times remained a dues paying 12 member of Local 1001? 13 A. Absolutely. I never forgot where I came 14 from. 15 Q. All right. Now, did you take on other 16 responsibilities at some point in time -- let me back 17 up. 18 You say you left the City at some point. 19 A. I left June of 1986. But I had one more 20 title before that. 21 Q. All right. Would you tell us what that was? 22 A. When -- in 1984 when the Washington 23 Administration -- well when the Washington 24 Administration came in, what they did is they wanted to 25 have one person responsible for all processes within
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1 each of the departments or bureaus. In 1984 the 2 Asphalt and Curb and Gutter Sections were made a bureau 3 unto themselves, and I was responsible for that bureau. 4 My title was Supervisor of Administrative 5 Assistant/Finance Officer/EEO Officer. I just had a 6 lot of hats that I wore. And I served in that capacity 7 for the Washington Administration until I left. 8 Q. And you said that was in '86? 9 A. June of '86 I left and I went to the Pension 10 Fund. 11 Q. Okay. And I think we talked about your being 12 a Trustee at some point as well. 13 A. For seventeen years before I became Director. 14 Q. And incidentally, in your current position 15 you're the Executive Director of the City Pension Fund? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. Do you have any Trustees that are members of 18 unions? 19 A. I have one of my Trustees. He's the 20 appointed Trustee representing the Local Labor Unions, 21 and he is a President of Laborers' Local 1092. He's a 22 Trustee on my Board. 23 Q. Who is that? 24 A. Charles LoVerde, III. 25 Q. Now when did you become an officer of Local
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1 1001. 2 A. I believe it was June of '84. 3 Q. How did that happen? 4 A. Ernie Kumerow, who was the President of Local 5 1001 at the time, asked me if I would serve. 6 Q. And what office have you held since that 7 time. 8 A. I was appointed Auditor. I never had another 9 position, and I still am Auditor. So I have never ever 10 held any other position for Local 1001. 11 Q. Have you stood for election? 12 A. Yes, sir. 13 Q. Most recently when? 14 A. In May of 2003. 15 Q. All right. And you've continuously been an 16 officer since 1984? 17 A. Yes, sir. 18 Q. Now as an Auditor -- first of all, let me ask 19 you what you did just as an Auditor pursuant to the 20 title. 21 A. As an Auditor my responsibility is to make 22 sure that there is an audit done every year. And Local 23 1001 has a professional auditor that does the audit 24 every year. Of course I -- if I'm needed I'm always 25 there to help.
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1 Q. What other services have you performed for 2 Local 1001? 3 A. On an ongoing basis I've helped them, and I 4 still do that until today, help them with budgets and 5 budgets, programs, staffing, entitles. Titled movement 6 is very important especially today because we're 7 undergoing an early retirement. We're undergoing some 8 layoffs. The budget isn't there for the City of 9 Chicago, and there's going to be a reduction in force. 10 So looking at titles and what's happening to them and 11 where they're going is very important today. 12 Q. And have you performed similar functions for 13 the Union over the years? 14 A. Absolutely. 15 Q. 1001. What else have you done for 1001? 16 A. Well on an ongoing basis I'm their liaison 17 for legislation. I interact with the members at all 18 the Union meetings. I get on the podium. Because in 19 my capacity at the Fund and working with the Local -- 20 officers of Local 1001, 1092, and 76, who are looking 21 for benefits for their members, their members are my 22 participants at the Fund. So we work together along 23 with the City of Chicago. We had an agree to process. 24 And this agree to process is with the City of Chicago, 25 the Pension Funds, and the Union to go down to
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1 Springfield to try to change any law. 2 Basically our plan is written in Illinois 3 law. And in order for the City of Chicago, the Pension 4 Fund to change anything about that law, we have to get 5 voted on by the General Assembly. So on an ongoing 6 basis when we have our Union meetings -- because I have 7 -- the process goes on all year long. We have a spring 8 session that the legislature goes in, and then we have 9 a fall veto session. So that's kind of -- that 10 legislative session goes along pretty much of the year. 11 And I interact with the members at our Union 12 meeting. I get up on the podium. I tell them what the 13 legislative agenda is. I tell them how it's going to 14 affect them, and I work with them to tell them what 15 their entitlements are. I field questions from the 16 floor and invariably -- and I take the minutes for 17 Local 1001 and I have been doing that for over 20 18 years. 19 So now at the end of the meeting they 20 invariably come up to my table and they will ask me 21 questions about the benefits. But most of all they 22 would ask me questions about themselves. They want an 23 estimate for -- of when, "Maybe I'm going to retire in 24 two years. Can I get an estimate?" Various questions 25 about maybe they have a service that they want to pay
880
1 for, that they want to get an estimate how much it's 2 going to cost them. And I field these questions. They 3 call me at the office. I give it to my staff, and we 4 sometimes give them personal service to call them back 5 to take care of them because my members are very close 6 to all of us, and they're dear to me, and, you know, 7 here they are here. They're my guys. And I respect 8 them and I work hard for them. 9 And let me say one thing if I may take the 10 liberty. What the charges are on these allegations 11 about these false lies that they have written about me, 12 Mr. Thomas, sir, these lies -- these are my peers. 13 They know me, some of them for over 40 years. You 14 don't, you don't, you don't -- 15 (Applause.) 16 When you work with peers for forty years, they 17 know what you're about. They know what you do. They 18 know what you are and they know what you're not. And 19 Mr. Lydon, I am not what they have here, Mr. Thomas, 20 and with due respect, Mr. Vaira. 21 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: You asked 22 me a question? 23 THE WITNESS: No. That's not me. 24 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Okay. All 25 right.
881
1 MR. LYDON: I have no further questions. 2 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Let me ask 3 you a question. You take the notes. 4 THE WITNESS: Minutes, yes, sir. 5 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Isn't that 6 the Recording Secretary's job? 7 THE WITNESS: You know why it was relegated 8 to me, sir? Because I can speed write. 9 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Answer my 10 question. Isn't that the Recording Secretary's job? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. But we work together on 12 this and I take them. 13 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Okay. Go 14 ahead. 15 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Vaira, with all due respect 16 to Mr. Lydon, I didn't want to interrupt, but that was 17 almost entirely duplicative of Mr. Capasso's earlier 18 testimony. I'm not going to go over the same degree of 19 line by line that we did last time. 20 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I know 21 you're not. I know you're not. Because that was 22 pretty much what he said last time. Not too much 23 difference. Some things are new. 24 MR. LYDON: There is some allegations that 25 hadn't even been made until this afternoon.
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1 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I 2 understand that. 80 per cent was duplicative. 3 MR. THOMAS: All the work history. 4 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: And there 5 was some denials and also some other jobs he put in. 6 So -- 7 MR. LYDON: Yes. 8 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Now Mr. 9 Thomas, why don't we -- what were you saying? 10 MR. THOMAS: I don't have much for Mr. 11 Capasso. 12 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I didn't 13 think you did. Go ahead. 14 CROSS EXAMINATION 15 BY 16 MR. THOMAS: 17 Q. Concerning the questions about Mr. Marcello, 18 you indicated you knew him in the late 60's, early 19 70's? 20 A. While he was a City employee, sir. 21 Q. I'm just trying to get the time frame. 22 A. Yes, sir. Not the early 70's, just -- I 23 think he left at least 1970. It might have been 1969. 24 Q. Okay. So roughly how much time are we 25 talking about?
883
1 A. That he was a City employee? 2 Q. That you had any contact with him at all. 3 A. I couldn't say when he started with the City. 4 I don't remember that. 5 Q. Are we talking two years, three years? 6 A. Sure, at least. Because I believe he was a 7 -- I forget what his title was before he was a foreman. 8 Q. How old was he at the time and how old were 9 you at the time, roughly. 10 A. I was probably close to 30 years old. 11 Q. And how about him? 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. Approximately. 14 A. Maybe the same age. 15 Q. And in terms of what you talked about on the 16 phone, that's just you and him on the phone, right? 17 A. That was -- it's a leading question, sir, but 18 I presume that anybody that's on the phone it's a 19 two-way conversation and it's not a conference call. 20 Q. Just so you know, I'm supposed to, on cross 21 examination, ask leading questions. 22 So the phone calls that you had with Mr. 23 Marcello, that was just you and he and no one else, 24 right? 25 A. Business.
884
1 Q. Understood. You and he and no one else, 2 correct? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. You indicated that -- in response to Mr. 5 Lydon's question that you had no sense whatsoever that 6 there had ever been any organized crime influence on 7 Local 1001, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And is it also true that you've had no sense 10 whatsoever that Bruno Caruso had any association with 11 organized crime. 12 A. Sir, I don't pretend to sit here and know 13 what people do. All I can tell you about is my 14 dealings with Local 1001. That's all I can tell you 15 about. 16 Q. I understand that. And those have been 17 extensive dealings, are they not? 18 A. That's correct. 19 Q. You knew Mr. Caruso, correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you still know him, right? 22 A. I have not seen Mr. Caruso since he left. 23 Q. But you certainly knew him when he was head 24 of Local of 1001. 25 A. Sure.
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1 Q. And you didn't have any sense at the time 2 that he was associated with organized crime, right? 3 A. No. 4 Q. It turns out, unbeknownst to you, that he had 5 associations. You've heard that, right? 6 A. All I know is what I read in the paper. 7 Q. In the paper? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. What paper? 10 A. And what you've had here. 11 Q. Prior to the exhibits being put together, you 12 understood why Mr. Caruso was being asked to leave, 13 right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So did that come as a surprise to you? 16 A. I think the manner in which he was let go was 17 a surprise to me, yes. 18 Q. What do you mean by that? 19 A. Well, you know, I don't want to get into that 20 how you -- how this body proves things. I don't know. 21 Q. So you're saying it was an unfair process? 22 A. I don't know. I wasn't privy to the process. 23 Q. What is it about it that makes you think -- 24 A. You're asking me questions that I can't 25 answer about your process or what I think of your
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1 process. All I know is that -- what happened to Mr. 2 Caruso was in the Chicago Tribune. 3 Q. The fact that he stepped down. 4 A. No. The allegations of Mr. Caruso were in 5 the Chicago Tribune. 6 Q. And also in the Laborer Magazine, right? 7 A. I don't recall. 8 Q. You don't recall? 9 A. No. 10 Q. You don't recall seeing the charges and the 11 result? 12 A. When you say -- you mean the one that comes 13 every quarter or something? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Yes, I get that. 16 Q. And you saw Mr. Caruso's charges and you saw 17 the result of that, right? 18 A. Sure. 19 Q. So that's something independent of the 20 Chicago Tribune, right? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. And are you saying that you knew something 23 about that case that -- 24 A. No, I don't. I didn't. 25 Q. You have to wait for the question mark at the
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1 end of the question, okay? 2 Are you saying that you knew something about 3 that case that caused you to question the fairness of 4 that proceeding? 5 A. No, I am not. 6 Q. So -- let me repeat the question. If you 7 hadn't known him to be an associate of organized crime 8 in your prior dealings with him, were you surprised at 9 the outcome? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Thank you. 12 Mr. Capasso, you've been an Auditor since I 13 think approximately 1984; is that right? 14 A. Correct. 15 Q. And based on your earlier testimony several 16 weeks ago, I think you indicated that that's been 17 mostly a perfunctory title in that the Local has 18 outside auditors, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And so the work that you've described doing 21 for the Local has been more general, if I can use that 22 word. It's not been really auditing work per se, 23 right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Was there any work as an Auditor that you did
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1 for Local 1001 during the years that you've had that 2 title? 3 A. Probably looking at the membership that was 4 working in the Asphalt Department would try and make 5 sure that they were in fact 1001 members and that. 6 Q. So checking the membership list to make sure 7 that they jived with what? 8 A. With the people that were at the Asphalt 9 Section. 10 Q. I'm not following you. 11 A. They would call me and I would go there and I 12 would check the list that they have of people that were 13 working that were paying dues. They wanted to make 14 sure that they -- there was no computers then. 15 Q. Let me stop you for a second. When you say 16 they would call you, you mean members would call you? 17 A. No. The ladies that ran the office. 18 Q. So the staff at the Local -- 19 A. Right. 20 Q. -- would call you over at the Pension Fund. 21 A. No, no. This is going back many years now. 22 Q. So pre 1984? 23 A. Sure. 24 Q. I'm asking you post 1984. You've now left 25 the City --
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1 MR. LYDON: He didn't leave until '86. 2 BY MR. THOMAS: 3 Q. Or '86. You left the City and you're head of 4 the Pension Fund. From '86 forward have you done any 5 auditing work? 6 A. No, not per se. 7 Q. Did you ever read financial statements? 8 A. Sure. 9 Q. In what capacity? 10 A. They mail them out to -- 11 Q. To everyone? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. All the members? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. So there was no -- other than doing what 16 every other member had the right to do, which is read 17 that in the mail, there was no actual work that you 18 performed. 19 A. Wait a minute. The financial statements I 20 might be getting mixed up with the Health and Welfare. 21 They sent them out. 22 Q. Let's back up. 23 A. The financial statements that I'm used to 24 seeing coming through the mail are the Laborers' Health 25 and Welfare in Westchester.
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1 Q. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking 2 about the Local's finances. The title of Auditor for 3 the Local means Auditor for the Local, right? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. In that capacity, from 1986 forward, did you 6 ever do any actual auditing work? 7 A. Just looking at the book that they used to 8 keep the Union dues in, and looking at the -- if there 9 was anybody that was delinquent or anything like that. 10 But there was no hard line of work doing that, no. 11 Q. So just the dues issue. 12 A. Yeah, right. 13 Q. So you had no interaction with Thomas Havey 14 in the years they were doing the firm's -- the Union's 15 auditing? 16 A. Not unless I was asked, no. 17 Q. Were you ever asked? 18 A. No. 19 Q. And the various things that you've described 20 doing for the Local since 1986 when you've been with 21 the Pension Fund, those things, while numerous, have 22 not been anything close to full-time work, right? Your 23 full-time job is with the Pension Fund, correct? 24 A. That's correct. 25 Q. And we went through that last time.
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1 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: We went 2 through it in great length last time. 3 MR. THOMAS: Nothing further. 4 MR. LYDON: I have nothing further. 5 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Thank you. 6 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. Vaira. 7 (Witness excused.) 8 MR. MENDENHALL: Mr. Vaira, we would like to 9 call Robert Redd. 10 (Witness duly sworn.) 11 ROBERT REDD, 12 called as a witness herein, having first been duly 13 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 14 DIRECT EXAMINATION 15 BY 16 MR. MENDENHALL: 17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Redd. Can you state your 18 full name and spell your last name for the benefit of 19 the court reporter? 20 A. Robert E. Redd, R-e-d-d. 21 Q. And where do you live, Mr. Redd? 22 A. 10223 South Vernon, Chicago, Illinois. 23 Q. Is that on the far south side of Chicago? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And Mr. Redd, where did you attend high
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1 school? 2 A. Harlam High School. 3 Q. And that's spelled H-a-r-l-a-n? 4 A. L-a-m. 5 Q. L-a-m? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And what year did you graduate? 8 A. 1975. 9 Q. And Mr. Redd, are you currently a member of 10 Local 1001? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And how long have you been a member? 13 A. Over 27, 28 years. 14 Q. So since around 1975? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And how are you currently employed, sir? 17 A. I work refuse truck, 17th Ward, Streets and 18 Sanitation. 19 Q. Mr. Redd, can you walk us through -- and when 20 did you first join the City of Chicago? 21 A. Full-time it was June of '75. 22 Q. And can you walk us through quickly your 23 positions that you've had with the City of Chicago 24 since 1975 to the present? 25 A. In 1972 it was in the summer, I worked
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1 asphalt as a helper, and every year I come back. I 2 started working presently full-time in 1975. I worked 3 with the Building Department of Demolition wrecking 4 garages. And in 1980 I started in the Refuse doing 5 garbage collection. 6 Q. Okay. And so your period of time from 1972 7 to 1975, that was part-time employment. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Strictly going for summers. 10 A. For summer. 11 Q. And during this entire time from when you 12 first started with the City in 1975 to the present, you 13 were and are a member of Local 1001. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And Mr. Redd, during this time from 1975 to 16 the present, did you regularly attend Local 1001 17 membership meetings? 18 A. Yes, 87 per cent of the time. 19 Q. And generally what time do you arrive at 20 these meetings? 21 A. I would be there pretty early, before they 22 start. 23 Q. What did you generally observe going on 24 before these meetings start, sir? 25 A. A lot of the members come and talk to their
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1 friends, people they worked with before in different 2 departments. 3 Q. And what do you observe the officers doing? 4 A. They come in, they speak, they shake 5 everybody's hand, talk to the people that, you know, 6 might have called them before. It's a -- get a feeling 7 of people for that day, see how they're doing. 8 Q. And approximately sir, how many people would 9 you say -- members attend these meetings? 10 A. About 175, 200 people. 11 Q. And that's on a consistent basis since 12 approximately 1975? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. During these membership meetings have you 15 seen the members regularly voice their opinions? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And have you personally, sir, raised issues 18 at these meetings? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And how have these issues been addressed? 21 A. Well if they can answer the question at the 22 time we have the meeting, they would do so. But if 23 they couldn't, they ask the member to stay after the 24 meeting and they'll try to solve the problem. 25 Q. When you say "they", you're in reference to
895
1 Local 1001 officers. 2 A. Local 1001 officers, yes. 3 Q. During your 28 years membership in Local 4 1001, have you attended nomination or election 5 meetings? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And have you attended those regularly as 8 well? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. How do you typically find out that there's 11 going to be a nomination/ election meeting? 12 A. We will receive something in the mail. The 13 meeting before they would let us know that something of 14 that nature would be coming up. 15 Q. And during your attendance at these 16 membership -- strike that. 17 During your attendance at these nomination 18 meetings are members free to nominate anyone they 19 choose for the position? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And what typically happens when someone is 22 nominated? 23 A. They either accept or they decline. 24 Q. And have you ever seen someone decline the 25 nominations?
896
1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And have you ever personally nominated 3 anyone. 4 A. Yes, I have. 5 Q. And who was that, sir? 6 A. Willie Bates. 7 Q. And what did you nominate Mr. Bates for? Was 8 that the Executive Board? 9 A. Executive Board, yes. 10 Q. There's been a fair amount of discussion 11 today about uncontested elections. During your 28 12 years at the Local did you find there anything unusual 13 about the uncontested elections? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Why not? 16 A. Because I mean from the present and past -- 17 from the time I've been a member of the Union and 18 whatnot, we have came forward from a long way. 19 I remember a time when we had to work 15 20 years just to get three weeks vacation. And the people 21 that come now is much better for them. You don't have 22 to wait no 15 years. And there has been a lot of 23 improvement. We have gained a lot, and the -- be it a 24 standstill, gets more than 20 years back. 25 Q. What do you attribute those gains to, the
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1 leadership at the Local or what? 2 A. Yes. The people they have working for us, 3 they do their best to get all that they can for us as 4 far as benefits, health, because at one time we didn't 5 have dental care or eye care and we have that now. 6 Q. Who negotiated that for you? 7 A. The Business Manager, the President. 8 Q. And do you feel the current leadership are 9 doing a good job on behalf of the members of Local 10 1001? 11 A. I believe they are. 12 Q. Um-hum. And are you happy with the 13 leadership? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Um-hum. Do you feel the leadership is out 16 there on a daily basis fighting for the best interest 17 of Local 1001? 18 MR. THOMAS: Objection to the leading. 19 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: He may ask 20 that question. The guy's entitled to talk about his 21 own Union. Go ahead. 22 THE WITNESS: Well I know if we call, you 23 know, they would get back to us and whatnot. It's just 24 like family. I mean if you have a problem and if they 25 can't get back to you, someone would come and see you,
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1 someone would call you before the day is out. You 2 would get some kind of justice. 3 BY MR. MENDENHALL: 4 Q. So if you call one of the officers of the 5 Local 1001 with a problem, by the end of the day 6 someone will get back to you and try to resolve your 7 situation? 8 A. Yes. 9 MR. THOMAS: Same objection. 10 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: That's all 11 right. Go ahead. You may answer that. 12 BY MR. MENDENHALL: 13 Q. Can you talk a little bit about the different 14 ways you've seen the officers help members on a 15 personal basis if you have any such knowledge. 16 A. Well they strive in the Union meeting to go. 17 They push people to be on time. If a person have a 18 drug problem or anything like that, alcohol problem, 19 they ask them to call them or they'll try to seek help 20 for them. If you have personal problems, they'll try 21 to, you know, work things out with the family and stuff 22 like that. 23 Q. So, for instance, if an individual has a drug 24 or an alcohol problem, you would see -- the officers 25 would try to get that person into rehabilitation.
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1 A. Yes. 2 Q. If they're having a family problem, the 3 officers would also try to intervene to the extent they 4 can in that regard. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And based on your observations, have you 7 observed the membership feeling comfortable with 8 bringing their problems to the current leadership? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Have you personally had any problems in which 11 you brought issues to the leadership? 12 A. Yes, I have. 13 Q. Can you please tell us about that. 14 A. Okay. One time the Superintendent tried to 15 put me out of the Ward, and I called the Union and they 16 went and talked to the Division Superintendent and 17 talked to the Superintendent and got things 18 straightened out. 19 Q. Who did you call in that regard? 20 A. I called the Union. 21 Q. And what individual from the Union came out? 22 A. Well Mr. Bates came out and also the 23 President came out. 24 Q. Okay. And so when you say "Mr. Bates", 25 you're in reference to Willie Bates who you mentioned
900
1 earlier. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And this was fairly recent I take it then? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And so the current leadership at the Union 6 came out and fought for you and your rights to stay 7 within the Ward. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And how was everything resolved? 10 A. Everything is fine as to date. 11 Q. You stayed within the Ward. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Have you ever felt any of the decisions Local 14 1001 made on behalf of their membership was influenced 15 by organized crime. 16 A. No. 17 Q. Have you ever felt in your 28 years at the 18 Local that the Local was being compromised due to 19 influence of organized crime. 20 A. No, I never experienced that. 21 Q. During your 28 years at the Local you've seen 22 a steady progression forward in terms of benefits? 23 MR. THOMAS: Objection. 24 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: You may 25 answer it. Go ahead.
901
1 BY MR. MENDENHALL: 2 Q. Benefits and other efforts to move the Union 3 forward, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Mr. Redd, will you please tell us how you 6 would feel if the current leadership was replaced and 7 removed. 8 A. Well, I mean it's just -- if we go back and 9 we be at a standstill, it would be a great loss. I 10 mean, because someone new come in, who we going to 11 call? We can't call them and bring our problems. They 12 don't know our problems. A lot of them won't even 13 accept our problems. And they can't call downtown 14 because nobody know 'em. 15 Q. And when you say "downtown", you're in 16 reference to? 17 A. City Hall. 18 MR. MENDENHALL: That's all I have, Mr. 19 Vaira. 20 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Thomas? 21 MR. THOMAS: No questions. Thank you. 22 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I have a 23 question, Mr. Redd. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Let's
902
1 assume out there -- there's got to be some young fellas 2 and young women now want to get into the management of 3 this Union. They want to move up. What do you do? 4 How do you get to somebody to notice you to say, "Look, 5 I'm a hotshot here and I think I want to move up here 6 and get on the ticket. I want to be accepted." What 7 do you do? 8 THE WITNESS: Well if a person feel they want 9 to do something like that, they should come to a Union 10 meeting first of all. You got a lot of people don't 11 come. 12 (Applause.) 13 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: There's a 14 young hotshot out there and say, "Look I'm a hotshot. 15 I can work up here. I got the stuff." What do you do? 16 Is there an informal process? Has anybody ever done 17 that? 18 THE WITNESS: No, not that I know of. 19 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: How is the 20 Union -- how is the new guys coming up, how do they get 21 noticed? 22 THE WITNESS: You have -- I mean you have to 23 attend meetings. You got to -- but see, okay, but you 24 have to show some incentive. I mean when I say attend 25 meetings, you got to come and do some work. You got to
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1 come and show that you are concerned, and maybe take 2 initiative at the position that you're trying to go 3 for. You just can't walk off the street and say, "I 4 want to be a heart surgeon," and you going to operate 5 on someone. 6 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I 7 understand. But I'm a hotshot young man, young woman. 8 "I'm looking good and I got the stuff." What's he or 9 she do? 10 THE WITNESS: Well if they talk to some of 11 the members and they can persuade the members that they 12 qualified and they sincere in what they want to do, 13 then I would look at it. I would look at what they're 14 talking about. 15 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Anybody 16 ever done that in the last five years? 17 THE WITNESS: No. Because we never had -- 18 we've got -- our last contract was a good contract, and 19 it was a lengthy contract because we had to wait for 20 our back pay and stuff like that which -- I mean it 21 took a long time, because a lot of things that they 22 didn't want to give us we ended up getting. Like we 23 don't have no -- like Sanitation, for example, we don't 24 have no sick days. We work out in the rain, cold 25 weather. I mean they put -- I remember one time they
904
1 put the trucks in the garage to keep them warm and they 2 wanted us to go out and clean off the -- but a lot of 3 stuff happens, I mean, stuff that people don't even 4 know. They sit up in the office and whatnot. They 5 don't know the conditions out there. They don't know 6 what people go through or they don't know what people 7 do out there in the alleys. 8 (Applause.) 9 A month ago I'm picking up some bags on 79th 10 and Ashland, a car ran right up behind the truck. A 11 lady was standing getting on the bus and she done 12 hollered. I probably would have got hurt. I ended up 13 getting my finger sprung with the basket bouncing up. 14 There's all kind of dangers out there. 15 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Thank you 16 very much. Thank you, sir. 17 (Witness excused.) 18 (Applause.) 19 MR. LYDON: We need a break for our next 20 witness. He isn't here yet. 21 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: All right. 22 Their next witness isn't here. He needs a break. Tell 23 us when you're ready. 24 (Whereupon a break was taken in 25 the proceedings after which the
905
1 following proceedings were had:) 2 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Okay. 3 We're going to swear the witness. 4 (Witness duly sworn.) 5 Okay. Go right ahead, sir. 7 called as a witness herein, having first been duly 8 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 9 DIRECT EXAMINATION 10 BY 11 MR. FARACI: 12 Q. Please state and spell your name for the 13 record. 14 A. Marvin Gittler. 15 Q. What is your occupation, Mr. Gittler? 16 A. I'm an attorney. 17 Q. And how long have you been an attorney for? 18 A. 40 years. 19 Q. And where are you licensed to practice law? 20 In which particular states? 21 A. Illinois, all the Circuits but one, and the 22 United States Supreme Court. 23 Q. Please give us your educational background 24 where you went to law school and college. 25 A. I graduated from the University of Syracuse
906
1 in 1960, I think, yeah. And I graduated University of 2 Chicago Law School in 1963. 3 Q. And are you a member of any professional 4 organizations? 5 A. Yes. All of the major Bar Associations and a 6 few minor Bar Associations. 7 Q. Do you teach any courses in Labor Law? 8 A. Not this year, but I have in the past. 9 Q. Can you please describe those to us and where 10 you taught them? 11 A. I've taught at Loyola. I've taught at 12 Chicago Kent Law School. They had a Master's program 13 focusing on the duty of fair represent -- well my 14 section had to do with the duty of fair representation 15 and Landrum-Griffin. It's sometimes referred to as the 16 Labor Management Reporting and Disclosure Act. 17 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: LMRDA. 18 THE WITNESS: I've also -- I guess a 19 consultant is the word rather than teacher for the 20 American Arbitration Association, and a significant 21 number of ad hoc lectures. 22 BY MR. FARACI: 23 Q. Have you received any awards in the area of 24 Labor Law? 25 A. You mean other than winning a case now and
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1 then? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. Last -- earlier this year I was honored by 4 receiving the Peggy Browning Activist Award. Two years 5 ago I was inducted into the Illinois Labor History 6 Society, not something that attorneys often do, but it 7 was an honor for me. 8 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Miss 9 Browning is the Philadelphia -- 10 THE WITNESS: Was, yes. 11 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: She passed 12 away. I once represented her and her Union. An 13 untimely death. 14 THE WITNESS: It was, and she was a good 15 friend. I don't think that had anything to do with it, 16 but they've established a fund in her name. 17 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I know 18 that. I know. 19 THE WITNESS: And it's become somewhat 20 prestigious to be recognized by that fund. 21 BY MR. FARACI: 22 Q. Mr. Gittler, have you written any articles in 23 the area of Labor Law? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Can you just describe a few of those to us?
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1 A. The range of Labor Law I've written on 2 Affirmative Action, I've written on the responsibility 3 to deal with recognition situations, picketing 4 situations, just the range of subjects that are of 5 interest at the particular time. 6 Q. And how much of your current practice is 7 devoted to Labor Law issues? 8 A. If one includes ERISA issues, a hundred per 9 cent. 10 Q. How many years has that been the case for? 11 A. In the sense of Labor being my major focus, 12 from 1963, from the time of graduation. 13 Q. Have you ever been qualified as an expert in 14 the area of Labor Law. 15 A. I was qualified as a witness if that's what 16 you mean. 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. In one case before the Illinois Educational 19 Labor Relations Board in a dispute between the Chicago 20 Teacher's Union, which I did not represent, and the 21 Chicago Board of Education, which I did not represent. 22 MR. FARACI: Thank you. At this time I would 23 offer Mr. Marvin Gittler as an expert attorney in the 24 area of Labor Law. 25 MR. THOMAS: I guess I would want to know,
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1 Mr. -- I would want a proffer, Mr. Vaira, concerning 2 where we're going with the testimony. Because if what 3 he's going to express opinions on is ERISA issues or 4 some of the criminal issues in the pension allegations, 5 that's very different from Labor Law. So -- 6 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Yes. But 7 tell me where you're going anyway so we'll know as to 8 when your hypothetical comes up as to -- 9 MR. FARACI: We will be addressing some of 10 the opinions that Mr. Maria testified to a few weeks 11 ago. 12 MR. THOMAS: In that case can I voir dire the 13 witness on those issues? 14 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Okay. 15 EXAMINATION 16 BY 17 MR. THOMAS: 18 Q. Mr. Gittler, my name is Bob Thomas. How are 19 you? 20 A. Fine. 21 Q. In writing your articles and on, you said, a 22 range of Labor subjects, have any of those articles 23 been on ERISA issues per se? 24 A. I don't recall any on ERISA, no. 25 Q. Any on eligibility criteria for Pension or
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1 Health and Welfare Funds. 2 A. Well if you include the definition of the 3 term "employee", it may arguably have some of that in 4 there. 5 Q. You have written an article on that? 6 A. Some of the articles I've written had to do 7 with the definition of what an employee is. 8 Q. Uh-huh. And in what larger context? 9 A. Primarily in the context of entitlement to 10 protections under the National Labor Relations Act. 11 That act only protects employees. Independent 12 contractors, for example, are not considered employees, 13 and the distinction between contractors and employees 14 is sometimes determinative of employee rights. 15 Q. But these articles were not pertaining to 16 analysis of the term "employee" as defined in the Trust 17 Agreements of the governing documents of particular 18 unions, were they? 19 A. If I understand your question, no. I've 20 written on that subject in briefs, but not in -- 21 Q. All right. The areas in which you've written 22 or taught have not included Criminal Law, have they? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Including the criminal provisions of the 25 Labor laws, right?
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1 A. In the experience at Kent, while the criminal 2 impact of some of the Landrum-Griffin position was not 3 primarily a focus, you cannot void but note them. In 4 that sense I've dealt with them. I've not dealt with 5 them to hold myself out or instruct anyone in the 6 criminal procedures relating to them. 7 Q. Um-hum. 8 A. But I have noted what I thought were the 9 unique aspects of this piece of legislation which, 10 although designed primarily as a piece of civil 11 litigation, does have criminal overtones to it, in fact 12 more than overtones. Criminal sanctions attendant to 13 it, and I note that. 14 Q. Would it be fair to say that your areas of 15 expertise have to do mostly with substantive Labor Law 16 as opposed to ERISA or the criminal components of the 17 Labor Laws, collective bargaining, rights of 18 representation, and the like. 19 A. Yeah, yeah, I think that would be fair to 20 say. 21 MR. THOMAS: Nothing further. 22 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Nothing 23 further. I'm not so sure how much the criminal part 24 impacts this at all. 25 MR. THOMAS: If I may respond to that. I
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1 mean that was a large part of Mr. Maria's testimony. 2 If he's being proffered as a response to Mr. Maria's 3 testimony, that's what a lot of it was. 4 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: All right. 5 I'll be pretty liberal on this, and he has practiced a 6 long time in this particular area. And maybe 7 technically in front of a jury I might voir dire 8 somemore and ask somemore questions, but I'll qualify 9 him. You may question him and give us just -- let us 10 know when your questions are -- 11 MR. FARACI: I'll direct you to each and 12 every opinion we're going to talk about. 13 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: -- so we 14 have some warning where we're going. 15 BY MR. FARACI: 16 Q. Mr. Gittler, have you ever been retained by 17 either LIUNA or Local 1001 in the past? 18 A. I've been retained by both. 19 Q. Can you describe the retention for both. 20 A. For Local 1001 I've been directly retained to 21 handle two or more pieces of federal litigation here in 22 the Northern District of Illinois. Those matters were 23 concluded. More recently the Local 1001 had some 24 substantive problems with the right of the City of 25 Chicago to subcontract work which they claim were
913
1 theirs, that is work which Local 1001 claimed was its 2 work. I was asked to assist in the filing and 3 processing of an unfair labor practice charge, actually 4 several charges, before the Illinois Labor Relations 5 Board. We did so and that matter settled out I think 6 before the summer. As far as direct representation is 7 concerned, that's pretty much my recollection. 8 As far as the LIUNA is concerned, that is the 9 International Union, I was retained, if my recollection 10 is correct, about two or three years ago. There was a 11 lawsuit brought against LIUNA by an ex-employee of the 12 Laborers' Pension Fund, the District Council Pension 13 Fund. A fellow named Became (Phonetic) was the 14 plaintiff. I represented the International Union, 15 which was the defendant, and as a result of depositions 16 and other discovery undertaken the case was withdrawn. 17 And other than -- I know -- I know several folks in the 18 Legal Department. I'm just trying to remember if I've 19 had any other specific cases. None come to mind. 20 Proximately those are the ones I recall. 21 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Vaira, I guess I have an 22 additional concern. I had not realized that that 23 answer was coming concerning prior representation of 24 the Local. I think that that's additional aspects of 25 his qualifications as an expert -- as an independent
914
1 objective expert that would need to be examined. If 2 he's been hired as an advocate for 1001 in the past, 3 and now it's in effect with that prior history he's 4 coming in with the mantle of an objective expert, 5 that's different. 6 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: You don't 7 represent them at the present time; am I correct? 8 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 9 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: It's been 10 -- three years have passed? 11 THE WITNESS: No. The unfair labor practice 12 to which I referred was earlier this year I think. 13 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: That's the 14 International Union. 15 THE WITNESS: No. The International was 16 about three years ago. And it was for the Local that I 17 did their unfair labor practice. 18 MR. THOMAS: But I mean -- sorry. But to me 19 that seems something akin to Mr. Faraci coming in and 20 saying, "I'm a labor lawyer. I'm an expert in this. 21 I've represented them in the past. I've been an 22 advocate. But today I want you to hear me as an 23 objective expert." 24 MR. FARACI: Isn't it the same as Mr. Maria 25 testifying he works for the Inspector General's Office
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1 part-time? He came in here and testified as an expert 2 a week ago. Actually the only difference is he still 3 works for them and he was allowed to give expert 4 opinions. 5 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: We've had 6 from time to time situations in this Union which -- if 7 this was a disciplinary matter I might be more 8 concerned with it. From time to time this Union where 9 attorneys, because there's not that many Labor 10 attorneys out there, would come in and then in the mix 11 and have represented -- and technically one would be 12 concerned about his objectivity having represented the 13 unions and before very recently. I'm going to let it 14 in and you may argue or you may tell me that it goes to 15 the weight. But he's here, and let's flush it out. 16 That's not a technical really -- as I say, if I were in 17 a situation where I had a jury and had to make some 18 decisions, I would make some other inquiries. But I'm 19 the guy you got to convince and I think I can sort it 20 out. So go ahead. 21 BY MR. FARACI: 22 Q. Mr. Gittler, did I ask you to review certain 23 material prior to your testimony today? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did that include the testimony of Mr. Ray
916
1 Maria given in this proceeding? 2 A. Yes, certain portions of it. 3 Q. Did it also include remittance forms from 4 Local 1001? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did it also include whatever we're going to 7 be referencing to, the GEB Exhibits 23, 24 and 25, 8 which were particular minutes of Local 1001's 9 membership meetings? 10 A. I looked at some minutes you gave me, yes. 11 Q. Those included particular officers' salary 12 resolutions, correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Mr. Gittler, first I would like to ask you 15 what are the fiduciary duties of an officer of a Local 16 Union under Title 29, Section 501(a). If you can just 17 give us a brief summary of them. 18 A. Insofar as financial dealings are concerned, 19 if I had to summarize the obligations, I would 20 characterize them as doing due diligence, not treating 21 with the organization as an adversary in any manner, 22 and being committed to the financial wellbeing of the 23 membership. 24 Q. In particular how does an officer of a Union 25 fulfill his or her fiduciary duties with the Union with
917
1 respect to officers' salaries? 2 A. The primary obligation would be to follow the 3 membership dictates as far as officers' salaries are 4 concerned, submitting those salaries to the membership, 5 and complying with the determination of the membership. 6 Q. I would like to turn your attention to Mr. 7 Maria's testimony. Earlier you testified that you 8 reviewed that, correct? 9 A. I did. I did review portions of it, yes. 10 Q. I've now handed you what has been -- or what 11 was the testimony of Mr. Maria. This is the transcript 12 of Maria. 13 MR. FARACI: 461. 14 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Starting 15 461. Okay. 16 BY MR. FARACI: 17 Q. Mr. Gittler, can you please take a look at 18 that again, in particular pages 461 through 463? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. In particular on page 462 lines one 21 through ten, Mr. Maria gives an opinion that Local 22 1001's contributions in lieu of direct salary for 23 certain Union officers, a practice of some 40 years was 24 due to the "inability of past and current officers of 25 Local 1001 to discharge their fiduciary
918
1 responsibilities" for the Union. 2 A. I see those words. 3 MR. THOMAS: Wait a minute, Mr. Vaira. 4 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Go ahead. 5 MR. THOMAS: That was not -- the second half 6 of that question was from the testimony. The first 7 half was not. If he's going to read something to the 8 witness, I ask that he read it the way it is in the 9 transcript. 10 MR. FARACI: I'm asking him to review it. If 11 you like, we can read the whole portion in. 12 MR. THOMAS: Your question was not the same 13 as what's in the transcript. 14 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Mr. Faraci, 15 you're going to read Mr. Maria's question and answer, 16 and then I presume then you're going to say to this 17 witness, "What is your opinion? Yes or no? Or do you 18 agree with it," or whatever. 19 MR. FARACI: Correct. 20 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Then you 21 better put it in. 22 MR. THOMAS: The distinction is that the 23 question that he was -- in the actual testimony had to 24 do with underreporting of hours. What he asked in the 25 question had to do with compensation in lieu of salary,
919
1 which is different. So I just ask if you're going to 2 ask him about the testimony, stick to the testimony. 3 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I'm going 4 to have him read it in. 5 MR. FARACI: Lines one through ten, 461 -- it 6 starts on -- we're going to leave on 462 lines one 7 through ten. 8 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: All right. 9 BY MR. FARACI: 10 Q. It reads: "Having reviewed the documents and 11 listened to the testimony, Mr. Maria, do you have an 12 opinion as to how this was able to happen for 13 approximately 40 years?" 14 "ANSWER: Yes, I do." 15 "QUESTION: What is that opinion?" 16 "ANSWER: This happened as a result of the 17 inability of past and current officers of Local 1001 to 18 discharge their fiduciary responsibilities with regard 19 to the management of business affairs and the monies of 20 members of Local 1001." 21 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: My 22 question, sir, is what are we talking about? Having -- 23 do you have an opinion how this was -- what subject 24 matter are we talking about? 25 MR. THOMAS: It's the previous two
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1 paragraphs. 2 MR. FARACI: The other two pages that I asked 3 him to review. 4 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: At least 5 get it in the record of some subject matter. Because 6 right now you could ask his opinion as to do they have 7 enough coffee. 8 MR. FARACI: We can start on page 461. 9 It says: "I can -- his answer was: "I can 10 explain. The underreporting is clearly important, 11 otherwise we wouldn't have a felony provision requiring 12 people to report properly. But the underreporting from 13 my analysis was -- for the approximately eight to ten 14 people was probably sufficient for those individuals to 15 fulfill pension credit and full welfare participation, 16 meaning the thresholds that were established and 17 testified to by Mr. Jorgensen. 18 But the Funds are harmed by the 19 underreporting because this is money, in some 20 instances, instead of contributing at 40 hours a week 21 actual hours for full-time employee, they're 22 contributing at 32. In effect you have a shortfall of 23 25 per cent of the hours depriving the Funds, both 24 Pension and Welfare Fund, of additional assets which 25 would in effect be invested and ultimately accrued to
921
1 the future benefit of the participants." 2 "QUESTION: Thank you." 3 And then it was the other section that I read 4 in, page 462, one through ten. 5 MR. THOMAS: Mr. Vaira, my problem is I think 6 this is not an accurate reflection of what the 7 antecedent is. The antecedent is the entire prior line 8 of testimony which encompasses two points: The 9 overpayment for ineligible participants and the 10 underpayment for eligible participants. And it's a 11 non-sequitor the way the question is being asked, 12 because, for example, the -- in line three on page 462 13 we're talking about something that happened for 40 14 years. The previous two paragraphs talk about the 15 underreporting for eligible participants. That didn't 16 happen for 40 years. The only thing that happened for 17 40 years was the funding for people that were 18 ineligible. 19 So I think Mr. Faraci's asking the witness 20 something that really isn't a true reflection of the 21 prior testimony on this, at least to encompass the 22 entire bit. 23 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Let's see 24 if we can narrow this down without completely -- 25 MR. FARACI: Let me ask him a question on
922
1 both then. I can ask him if he has an opinion with 2 regards to Local 1001's contributions in lieu of direct 3 salary for a practice of 40 years, was this due to the 4 inability of past and current officers of Local 1001 to 5 discharge their fiduciary responsibilities. That's the 6 first one that you asked me to address. 7 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Was -- 8 we're talking about two things. We're talking about 9 two concepts. One, the funding of the pension for 10 persons who were not -- weren't working. 11 MR. THOMAS: Correct. 12 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Okay. And 13 two, the underreporting for the secretaries. Those are 14 two different concepts. Now what are you going to ask 15 him about that? 16 MR. FARACI: I'm asking him whether or not the 17 pension contributions that Local 1001 made in lieu of 18 salary for these officers of Local 1001 was a breach of 19 their fiduciary responsibilities in making these 20 payments. 21 MR. THOMAS: I have no problem with that 22 question. 23 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: No problem 24 with that question. I think you summed it up. Okay. 25 Now after having heard all that, you got the
923
1 question? Do you know what question is being asked? 2 THE WITNESS: If I'm being asked whether the 3 payment of pension contributions in lieu of salary for 4 employees, those who perform work for the Local, is in 5 my judgment a violation of Title 5. Is that the 6 question? 7 BY MR. FARACI: 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. If that is, no, I do not believe it is a 10 violation of Title 5. 11 Q. Can you explain why. 12 A. Well for several reasons. Assuming first 13 that services are being performed, what is being given 14 is sufficient amount of compensation to induce 15 continuation of those services. The notion of 16 providing Health and Welfare benefits or Pension 17 benefits is frankly a means of providing compensation. 18 That in and of itself is in no way imprudent that I can 19 think of. 20 Additionally, the fact that it's being done 21 over an extended period of time, given what I 22 understand the obligations are under Title 5, those are 23 -- those obligations don't run only to Local Unions. 24 They run, for example, to other subordinate bodies of 25 International Unions and the International Union
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1 themself. I assume that was done after audits. Over 2 40 years it's got to turn up somewhere. I assume 3 audits can and should be performed by an International 4 Union. I think that a prudent individual would seek 5 professional assistance in making these judgments. I 6 mean hiring an accountant or CPA or auditor to do these 7 things. The mere fact that compensation is made 8 instead of putting dollars in an individual's pocket, 9 but making a contribution on behalf of that individual, 10 I don't think it even comes close to violating a 11 fiduciary obligation. 12 Q. Thank you. 13 Now with regards to underpayments, I'm going 14 to give you a hypothetical. If Local 1001 had been 15 making underpayments regarding certain contributions 16 for employees and this was picked up in an audit and 17 Local 1001 then paid the amount of money that was owed 18 to the Fund, do you believe their initial payments 19 prior to their knowledge of this underpayment would be 20 a breach of their fiduciary responsibilities? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Can you explain why? 23 A. The way Title 5 is structured and the history 24 of it, as I understand it, was intended to have it 25 operate for us to recognize that labor organizations
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1 these days are fairly complex organizations. And in 2 running them one must make judgments with particular 3 reference to the unique obligations and duties of a 4 labor organization. Nobody expects a complex 5 organization to be run without any mistakes, without 6 any unintentional mistakes or in some cases even 7 intentional mistakes. 8 What Title 5 provides, however, is not a 9 strict prohibition on the making of mistakes. What 10 Title 5 provides, or more accurately Section 501 11 provides, again as I understand it, is if a mistake is 12 brought to the attention of the responsible officials, 13 usually, but not always, by a member, but it could be 14 brought to their attention by a whole range of folks 15 including professionals, institutionals, superiors and 16 all of that, it specifies what the official should do 17 when that mistake is discovered. And not necessarily, 18 you know, putting on a sack cloth and ashes and beating 19 himself and saying, "Mea culpa, Mea culpa." It's at 20 this point that the due diligence that the statute 21 mandates should be followed. 22 In a case such as you've described in 23 financial situations, if such a situation were brought 24 to the client's attention, the -- namely the official's 25 attention, I'm not sure what would come first, but one
926
1 or two of the first steps to be taken: First, seek 2 professional assistance, and two, stop what you're 3 doing. Stop what it is, assuming no irreparable harm 4 would result. Can't think of any offhand that might 5 result, but you ought to stop it. 6 Once it's stopped, investigations by 7 professionals, a range of professionals, may be 8 considered, and then judgments ultimately are made. It 9 is only where the Union through its officers refuses to 10 act, to respond to the claim of impropriety that the -- 11 well that the law allows litigation to be instituted. 12 In fact, congress was so concerned, this is one of the 13 few statutes I'm aware of, particularly in Labor, in 14 fact it's the only one that I'm aware of in Labor, that 15 requires leave of Court to file a lawsuit. And that's 16 in the statute also. 17 So the mere commission of an alleged error 18 does not trigger a violation of Section 501. It is the 19 refusal to act prudently once that is brought to your 20 attention. 21 Q. Thank you. 22 I would like you to take a look at what has 23 been marked as GEB Exhibits 23, 24, and 25. These are 24 particular minutes of Local 1001's nomination meetings, 25 in particular 1991, 1995, and 1999. I think if you can
927
1 first take a look at Number 23 in particular, bate 2 stamped 0779. First we're looking at 23. 3 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: We're 4 talking about the May 1st, 1991. 5 MR. FARACI: Nomination meeting of Local 6 1001. 7 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: May 19th, 8 1991. 9 BY MR. FARACI: 10 Q. And in particular the section that's titled 11 "Compensation To Be Paid to Elected Officials." 12 A. I have two pages with that heading on it, 13 bate 778 and bate 779. 14 Q. Bate 0779, that's resolution number two. 15 This one right there, what's been circled by the GEB 16 Attorney. 17 A. I see what's been circled. I don't know who 18 circled it. 19 Q. If you could just read over again that 20 portion of -- these were documents you reviewed prior 21 to your testimony, correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Have you had a chance to review it, Mr. 24 Gittler? 25 A. Yes.
928
1 Q. Mr. Gittler, in your 40 years or so, I think 2 you testified to, of dealing in unions, have you had an 3 opportunity to work on a regular basis with a great 4 number of union members over the years? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. In your experience with these members have 7 you gained an understanding of what the term "adequate 8 disclosure to a member" means? 9 A. I think I understand what a member would 10 expect by adequate disclosure, yes. 11 Q. Can you please define that for us. 12 A. Notice to the member, an opportunity to -- 13 for the member to examine a document and an opportunity 14 for the members to express an opinion. 15 Q. Mr. Gittler, with regards to this 16 "Historically contributions for health and welfare and 17 pension benefits have been made for the following 18 positions: Sergeant-at-Arms, Auditors, and Executive 19 Board Members." Do you have an opinion within a 20 reasonable degree of legal certainty whether or not 21 that is adequate notice to the members. 22 MR. THOMAS: Objection. 23 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I may 24 sustain that objection. I don't think there's enough 25 foundation on that. That particular statement alone
929
1 gives you nothing to indicate where the 2 Sergeant-at-Arms, Auditors, Executive Board members are 3 qualified. Are they working at the calling or what? I 4 think it's too vague. 5 BY MR. FARACI: 6 Q. Did you have a chance to read over Mr. 7 Maria's testimony where he talked about inadequate 8 disclosures to the members. 9 MR. THOMAS: Of what in particular? 10 MR. FARACI: In particular of this Exhibit 11 Number 23. 12 THE WITNESS: I remember reading an answer in 13 which that witness said "inadequate notice." No 14 particular explanation. It just said "inadequate 15 notice." 16 BY MR. FARACI: 17 Q. Do you agree with his opinion at that point 18 that it's inadequate notice this provision to the 19 members? 20 A. Well -- no, I don't agree with that. I don't 21 know what he was talking about. 22 Q. And if you could also take a look at GEB 23 Exhibit Number 24, and in particular bate stamp number 24 0783. Again it's another resolution of compensation to 25 be paid.
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1 A. What number? 2 Q. 0783. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. And again you registered Maria's 5 testimony when he said "This is inadequate disclosure 6 to the members." 7 A. If that's what he said yes, I read that. 8 Q. Do you agree with that? 9 A. No. 10 Q. And again if you could take a look at GEB 11 Exhibit Number 25, in particular bate stamp number 12 0803. Again this is a resolution, except this one is 13 two pages. And the portion we're looking at is at 0804 14 on the back, second page. 15 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Now how 16 about reading that in. Read in the statement that you 17 believe is adequate notice. 18 MR. FARACI: Well in this particular one it 19 deals with the entire resolution. 20 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Okay. But 21 go back to -- the question before. 22 MR. FARACI: Okay. 23 BY MR. FARACI: 24 Q. Well the portion that we're talking about 25 that Mr. Maria says is inadequate disclosure,
931
1 "Historically contributions for health and welfare and 2 pension benefits have been made for the following 3 positions since they do not receive a salary: 4 Sergeant-at-Arms, Auditors and Executive Board 5 Members." 6 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: That's all 7 you're asking him to give an opinion on. 8 MR. FARACI: I'm asking him to give an 9 opinion with regards to the entire resolution, whether 10 or not this entire resolution -- 11 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: No, no, no, 12 not the entire resolution. You're talking about that? 13 MR. FARACI: The portion that Mr. Maria 14 testified is not adequate. 15 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: That's the 16 point -- we're not talking about the Vice President 17 gets this, the Secretary gets this, and so forth. 18 MR. FARACI: Correct. No. It's encompassed 19 in there. 20 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: No. What 21 you're asking him to talk about is that -- and that's 22 what this whole issue is about, not about -- there's no 23 allegations that the unions -- the officers -- the 24 notice for their salaries. 25 MR. FARACI: Correct.
932
1 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: We're 2 talking about the non-salaried officers and this 3 section here. So go right ahead. 4 MR. FARACI: Correct. Receiving the 5 contributions in lieu of salary. 6 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Okay. 7 BY MR. FARACI: 8 Q. Do you agree or disagree with Mr. Maria's 9 opinion that that portion that I just read into the 10 record is inadequate disclosure to the members. 11 A. No, I don't agree. May I make an 12 observation, Judge? 13 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: He's going 14 to ask you someplace what you base that on. 15 MR. FARACI: Yes. 16 BY MR. FARACI: 17 Q. Tell us what you're basing that on. 18 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Which part 19 now? 20 MR. FARACI: We're going to start with Number 21 23 and then we're going to go to 24 and then 25. 22 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Okay. 23 THE WITNESS: If the question means -- well, 24 if the answer "inadequate notice" means that a working 25 person, a member of the Local, who either read or heard
933
1 these words being read did not understand that these 2 officers would be compensated with health, welfare and 3 pension benefits, I disagree with that. I think a 4 working person, people that could fill out the forms 5 required to hold employment these days, people who 6 assume obligations on a daily basis, particularly in 7 the trades where you have to have more than a minimal 8 education, I think they would clearly understand what 9 this meant. 10 BY MR. FARACI: 11 Q. And would your answer be the same for Number 12 24 and also Number 25? 13 A. Yes. In fact, in 24 -- 14 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: They got to 15 point to what we're talking about. 16 MS. NAGLE: You have to say exactly in the 17 record. 18 MR. FARACI: Again in -- 19 THE WITNESS: In 24 I'm looking at 0783. 20 MR. FARACI: Correct. 21 THE WITNESS: On 25 I'm looking at 0804. And 22 what I said originally -- 23 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Is that the 24 same language on each one? 25 THE WITNESS: No. These two have an
934
1 additional clause, which the first did not have, and I 2 was about to observe that as far as the two latter 3 paragraphs are concerned, 0783 and 0804, those 4 reinforce my conclusion even more -- 5 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: What is 6 that language? 7 THE WITNESS: -- that a working person would 8 understand. 9 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: What's that 10 language? 11 THE WITNESS: The addition of the words, 12 "Since they do not receive a salary." To me it was 13 implicit, and I think to most working people that would 14 be implicit, even in the first one. This makes it even 15 more clear. 16 I suspect if somebody wanted to push it and 17 say, "Well instead of saying since they do not receive 18 a salary, it should say something like in lieu of 19 salary or instead of salary," I'm not sure in lieu of 20 -- these days I suspect in lieu of would be accepted. 21 I think there's no question but that a working person 22 would understand the meaning of this paragraph or these 23 paragraphs. 24 BY MR. FARACI: 25 Q. Mr. Gittler, earlier you had mentioned that
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1 over the years you've done some work with a coalition 2 in negotiating contracts -- 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. For the City of Chicago. Can you expand on 5 that for us? 6 A. The City of Chicago negotiates collective 7 bargaining agreements with about six major bargaining 8 units. One of the six is a coalition primarily but not 9 exclusively of trade unions whose members work for the 10 City of Chicago. There are approximately 28 to 30 such 11 Labor Unions that meet and negotiate with the City 12 together. That's called the Coalition. It's sometimes 13 referred to as the City Coalition. It is what I think 14 those of us who wear white shirts or blue shirts might 15 refer to as a Blue Collar Coalition. 16 The other major bargaining unit with whom the 17 City deals includes the Fraternal Order of Police for 18 the policemen, the firefighters, AFSME, American 19 Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, 20 which if I had to define the work they do, it would be, 21 well, essentially clerical, although all unions do some 22 clerical work. 23 They also deal with two smaller labor 24 organizations. One is the INA, the Illinois Nurses' 25 Association, and the second is what's called Unit II,
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1 Roman numeral two, which is a compilation of three 2 labor organizations that was certified -- when the 3 Illinois Labor Act became effective, they were 4 certified together. It's just the certification runs 5 to all three. The City's obligated to deal with them 6 on that basis. So it's referred to as Unit II because 7 that was its number on the ballot. 8 Q. Is Local 1001 a member of one of these 9 coalitions? 10 A. Local 1001 is a member of the City Coalition, 11 the Blue Collar Coalition, the Trade Coalition. 12 Q. Do they have a position working with you in 13 this coalition? 14 A. They have representatives at the bargaining 15 table as do the other 28 or 27 to 29 labor 16 organizations. Because of the number of City of 17 Chicago employees that Local 1001 represents, Local 18 1001 along with Local 726 of the Teamsters, who also 19 represent a very large number of City employees, are 20 the Co-Chairs of the Trade Coalition. 21 Q. So 1001 is one of the Co-Chairs of the Trade 22 Coalition? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And are you presently negotiating a contract 25 with the City of Chicago with this coalition?
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1 A. I am presently trying to get the City of 2 Chicago to deal in good faith, which they've had a very 3 hard time coming to. But in the sense that you use the 4 term, yeah, we are meeting and trying to negotiate a 5 successor to the collective bargaining agreement which 6 expired June 30 of this year. 7 Q. And that would be for the benefit of the 8 members of Local 1001? 9 A. Local 1001 and -- well the other members of 10 the Coalition as well. 11 Q. Mr. Gittler, do you have an opinion -- 12 A. Let me just make one other point because it 13 may be relevant. The Coalition negotiates with the 14 City at two levels. There's the Coalition level or the 15 Master level. This is where all of those coalition 16 unions that I mentioned deal with representatives in 17 the City of Chicago on issues of common interest, 18 issues which cut across the board. Health care, for 19 example, which affects all employees in the City, 20 grievance matters, no strike matters, a whole range of 21 matters which uniformly impact all the unions in the 22 coalition. 23 Each of the unions in the coalition, in 24 addition to dealing on a Master level, has the right 25 and must exercise the right to negotiate with the City
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1 on what we refer to as the Local level where only that 2 union meets with City representatives, and they 3 negotiate issues which are unique to that Local Union. 4 The most obvious example of issues which are unique are 5 the means of dealing with transfers, promotions, 6 seniority issues I guess, how you use seniority to get 7 jobs, layoffs, bumping rights, those kinds of things. 8 So there's a dual approach to bargaining with the City. 9 Q. I've got a couple more questions for you. 10 Do you have an opinion as to what would 11 happen to the Coalition's negotiating power with the 12 City of Chicago if a Trustee were to be placed in Local 13 1001. 14 MR. THOMAS: Objection. 15 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I'll 16 sustain that objection. That's not an expert opinion. 17 MR. FARACI: I'm asking him with regards to 18 his leading of the Coalition what would happen to his 19 negotiating power. 20 MR. THOMAS: Same objection. 21 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Sustained. 22 BY MR. FARACI: 23 Q. Mr. Gittler, do you have an opinion as to 24 what would happen to the members' rights and benefits 25 if this current administration is not allowed to
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1 continue negotiating with the City of Chicago if a 2 Trustee is placed in office here with regards to those 3 lower level Coalitions that you were talking about. 4 MR. THOMAS: Objection. 5 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Sustain the 6 objection. 7 BY MR. FARACI: 8 Q. Mr. Gittler, if you could just tell us what 9 contributions has Local 1001 made to this Coalition 10 with regards to negotiating with the City of Chicago. 11 MR. THOMAS: I'm sorry. Excuse me. This is 12 a fact question, not an expert question. 13 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I think 14 he's entitled to that. 15 MR. THOMAS: So long as that's clear. 16 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I mean he's 17 entitled to that. He is in effect negotiating on 18 behalf to a certain extent, and they're entitled to 19 demonstrate what they've done for the Coalition. 20 MR. THOMAS: But you see the nature of my 21 objection is part of this testimony purports to be 22 expert testimony and part purports to be fact. 23 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I recognize 24 that. 25 MR. THOMAS: Thank you.
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1 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Go ahead. 2 THE WITNESS: The individuals currently 3 representing Local 1001, particularly at the Local 4 level, because of their relationships with City 5 Managers, which has evolved over the terms of the 6 contract or however long they've had, are particularly 7 significant relationships. And their ability to -- 8 that is the Union officials' ability to persuade or 9 otherwise obtain benefits at the Local level have in 10 the past and I think still would have significant 11 impact on the ability of the Coalition who look to 12 these unions because of their size primarily as 13 leaders. The ability -- I think because of the absence 14 of such relationships the ability to achieve 15 improvements would be severely affected adversely. 16 BY MR. FARACI: 17 Q. Who would that be -- who are you working with 18 at Local 1001 at the present time. 19 A. You mean the name of the individuals? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. Nick Gironda. I'm trying to think who is at 22 the negotiations. 23 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: You may 24 suggest. 25 BY MR. FARACI:
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1 Q. Would it be Mr. Chianelli, Mr. DeChristopher, 2 Mr. Gibson? 3 A. DeChristopher, yes. Mr. Gibson I haven't 4 seen at the negotiations as often. 5 Q. Mr. Chianelli, Bobby Chianelli? 6 A. Yes. I'm sorry -- 7 MR. GIRONDA: Yeah, Bobby Chi. 8 (Voices from audience.) 9 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Settle 10 down. There is a -- there is a private joke, but 11 there's some issue of contention here and you just 12 sparked it, and that's what that's all about. They're 13 not laughing at your testimony. 14 THE WITNESS: Feel free to laugh. 15 BY MR. FARACI: 16 Q. Go ahead. 17 A. These are the individuals who when problems 18 arise during the administration of the contract respond 19 to the members' requests, and these are the individuals 20 who are the advocates for the members. 21 Q. So their importance would be not only in 22 negotiating but also in making sure that the City 23 continues to follow its obligations pursuant to the 24 contract? 25 A. In so far as anybody could convince the City
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1 of Chicago to follow its written commitments, yes. 2 MR. FARACI: Thank you. I have no further 3 questions. 4 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: I have one 5 question. I just want to clarify. 6 When you said that they -- that the sentence, 7 "Historically contributions for health and welfare and 8 pension benefits have been made for the following 9 positions since they do not receive a salary," and they 10 listed the three, you said that was an adequate notice. 11 Does that presume that those persons who are -- who are 12 in those offices are qualified to hold offices under 13 the Union Constitution. 14 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I understand your 15 question. 16 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: The 17 question is: Is that notice? And you took that 18 statement -- said the statement that "Historically 19 contributions for health and welfare and pension 20 benefits have been made for the following positions 21 since they do not receive a salary: Sergeant-at-Arms, 22 Auditors, and Executive Board Members." And you said 23 that was adequate notice. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, that was adequate notice. 25 And I think a member would understand what this
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1 language means. 2 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Now does 3 your opinion presuppose that those persons who hold the 4 position of Auditor, let's say for example, was 5 qualified to hold that position under the Union 6 Constitution. 7 THE WITNESS: The way this is written that 8 did not enter into the opinion I've expressed because 9 this doesn't use names. 10 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Okay. 11 THE WITNESS: All this says is the folks that 12 hold these positions will receive, instead of a salary, 13 instead of an hourly wage, they will receive health, 14 welfare and pension contributions. 15 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: And that 16 presumes that the persons who hold them are qualified 17 to hold them, hold that position. Otherwise -- 18 THE WITNESS: If they're not qualified, how 19 would they hold them? 20 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Good 21 enough. Thank you. That's the answer I'm looking for. 22 When you talk about notice, are they qualified to hold 23 those positions under the Constitution. And if they're 24 not, that they -- that your opinion wouldn't follow. 25 THE WITNESS: Well if an individual's
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1 qualifications is being contested after they hold the 2 position, what Landrum-Griffin says is that you have to 3 escrow the salaries until -- not salaries. Escrow the 4 compensation until that issue was resolved. 5 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: We 6 understand. Okay. 7 CROSS EXAMINATION 8 BY 9 MR. THOMAS: 10 Q. Good evening, Mr. Gittler. How are you? 11 A. So far I'm okay. 12 Q. Just following up on that topic briefly while 13 we're there concerning Exhibits 23, 24, and 25, is 14 there anything on those sheets of paper that would tell 15 the membership who the individuals are that are being 16 talked about? 17 A. The officers. 18 Q. No. But who? Who? For example, it says 19 "Sergeant-at-Arms, Auditors, Executive Board Members." 20 A. Well you don't know that until after the 21 election. 22 Q. Understood. But -- 23 A. The basic concept, and this is true of not 24 all but many unions, is that the terms and conditions 25 attendant to an office should be set before -- at or
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1 before nominations so that an individual choosing to 2 run for office, while I'm sure many run for office for 3 non-material reasons, will at least know what their 4 compensation is going to be. So you really never know 5 at the time you're approving salaries who is going to 6 receive them. 7 Q. Understood. 8 As you look at that document, if you're a 9 member just reviewing this, you come into this 10 nomination meeting and you want to figure out what's 11 going on. 12 A. Or you come to the Union Hall and read it, 13 yes. 14 Q. And you read this document. Can you tell, 15 without asking further questions, how many people are 16 going to get this benefit? 17 A. Just by looking at this? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. Probably not. 20 Q. Okay. How about the amount of money? If 21 you're the member and you want to know whether your 22 dues money is being spent appropriately or not and 23 whether to voice an objection or not, is there anything 24 here that tells you how much money they're actually 25 giving to these people.
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1 A. In this resolution? 2 Q. Yes. 3 A. Obviously not. But if you're asking whether 4 that information is available, it's available through a 5 myriad of resources. 6 Q. Well if the member knows where to look for it 7 or to ask for it, right? 8 A. Well in this particular case, counsel, if the 9 member is working for the City of Chicago, that member 10 knows contributions are being made on his or her 11 behalf. Now they're not identical to these, but you 12 can find that out. 13 Q. Mr. Gittler, please listen to the question. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. If the member comes to the meeting -- 16 A. Right. 17 Q. And this, by the way, is a document prepared 18 after the fact; isn't that right? 19 A. I don't know what you mean. 20 Q. These are minutes, right? 21 A. This is a resolution, as I understood it, 22 that was presented to the membership. The minutes -- 23 the minutes, I assume, are "after the fact" to use your 24 term, but the resolution I would not assume was after 25 the fact.
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1 Q. So let's assume that resolution number two is 2 actually on the table. People can look at it if they 3 want to see it, okay? 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. Is there anything on that resolution that 6 would give the membership any idea how much money, how 7 many dollars we're actually talking about before they 8 vote on it? 9 A. There are no numbers on the resolution, 10 counsel, that's clear. 11 Q. Okay. And -- 12 A. But if you're asking whether -- 13 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: Go ahead. 14 THE WITNESS: If you're asking whether a 15 member of a union would have a sense as to how much is 16 involved in the contributions, I would say yes, that 17 member would have a very keen sense even if it doesn't 18 have -- he or she doesn't have the exact amount. I 19 think they would have a very keen sense as to what was 20 being paid at the time. 21 BY MR. THOMAS: 22 Q. Well you do understand, I believe, that 23 pension credits are based on hours worked, right? 24 A. I don't know. If you're telling me that's 25 the case -- I mean I know -- I know unions where
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1 pension credits are not only based on hours worked, or 2 are based on -- I shouldn't say unions. I know Funds 3 or Trust Agreements where pension credits are based on 4 factors other than hours worked. 5 Q. All right. So how is a union member going to 6 have such a keen sense if there are all these different 7 factors that impact what the actual numbers are. You 8 said a union member would have a keen sense of this. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. How would a union member looking at this 11 document have a keen sense of what the actual dollars 12 are that he's voting for? 13 A. I think a union member would have a sense as 14 to what contributions are for a pension, what 15 contributions are for a Health and Welfare Fund. 16 Q. So if you were a member coming in and looking 17 at this resolution, would you know whether you were 18 looking at voting for ten thousand dollars a year, 19 fifty thousand dollars a year, a hundred thousand 20 dollars a year? How would you tell? 21 A. If I came in without any experience, without 22 any predicate, I guess I wouldn't know. 23 Q. And if you had the experience how would you 24 tell? 25 A. Well you know what's being paid on your
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1 behalf. 2 Q. And -- 3 A. You have a fair sense that that's what's 4 being paid on behalf of the Sergeant-at-Arms, Auditors 5 and Executive Board. 6 Q. And suppose the Trust Agreement says that the 7 laborer is going to get pension and contributions based 8 on actual hours worked, okay, that's way the Trust 9 Agreement is set up. You would assume then, if you 10 have this keen sense as a laborer, that these other 11 guys who were getting pension and welfare benefits are 12 -- it's going to be based on the same criteria, right? 13 A. Not necessarily. 14 Q. You would not assume that? 15 A. I'm saying a keen sense. For example, the 16 City of Chicago. If you work for the City of Chicago, 17 and it's my understanding, although I haven't looked at 18 any books or anything, it's my understanding that most 19 if not all of the members of Local 1001 are employed by 20 the City of Chicago. If you work for the City of 21 Chicago and work 52 hours every week, the only thing 22 the City will pay on your behalf is 40 hours. They 23 don't pay for overtime. 24 Q. Understood. 25 MR. FARACI: Objection. If he can let Mr.
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1 Gittler answer instead of interrupting. 2 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: He said he 3 understood. Go ahead. 4 THE WITNESS: All I'm saying is your focus on 5 the number of hours worked as the criteria, even where 6 the numbers about -- excuse me. Even where the number 7 of hours worked may be a function of the Trust 8 Agreement is not always the reality. If the collective 9 bargaining agreement says that pension shall be paid 10 only on base salary, pension shall not be paid on 11 holiday pay or other premiums, that's what controls the 12 employer. 13 BY MR. THOMAS: 14 Q. So have you actually looked at the governing 15 documents in this matter? 16 A. No. 17 Q. So when you talk about this not being 18 adequate disclosure or this being adequate disclosure, 19 you're doing it in the context of not actually having 20 read what the criteria are, correct? 21 MR. FARACI: Objection. The testimony was 22 with regards to fiduciary responsibilities pursuant to 23 Section 501, not the Trust Agreements. 24 THE INDEPENDENT HEARING OFFICER: That's a 25 fair question. You may answer it.
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1 BY MR. THOMAS 2 Q. Did you get the question? 3 A. No. 4 Q. In -- you have given an opinion that this is 5 adequate disclosure, but you've given -- you've given 6 that opinion without having read and reviewed the 7 governing documents that would determine whether these 8 credits are eligible or not, whether these people are 9 eligible or not. 10 A. No. I said before the eligibility of a 11 particular individual is not something I consider 12 because I don't know who the individual is. 13 Q. But in this case -- 14 A. It's not specified here. The specific 15 amount, I said before, is not reflected in here. 16 Separate from the fact that if that in |