14 Spilotro brothers?

15 A. They were murdered in June of 1986 and

16 found in a shallow grave in a cornfield in

17 Indiana.

18 Q. Was there testimony relating to that

19 murder or those murders in the Tocco case?

20 A. There was testimony -- I'm not sure if

21 during the actual trial there was testimony. I

22 don't recall. There were hearings of that sort

23 where Betty Tocco offered information about the

24 burial of the Spilotro brothers.

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1 Q. So, in that testimony or in those

2 debriefings, what did Ms. Betty Tocco as a

3 cooperating witness relate about either

4 Mr. Tocco's involvement or anyone else's

5 involvement in the burial of the Spilotro

6 brothers?

7 A. Mrs. Tocco related that on Father's

8 Day, I believe it was June 16, 1986, she was going

9 to have a family barbecue. Early that morning

10 about 6 a.m. she received a telephone call from

11 her husband, Albert Tocco.

12 He was very upset and irate and

13 screaming and yelling at her to come and pick him

14 up. He had to give her directions. He was

15 approximately 50 miles away in northern Indiana.

16 Following his directions, Betty Tocco

17 drove to an area. I think it was Route 41. I

18 really don't recall. To an area that was

19 approximately a mile away.

20 Now, this occurred in 1986. She was

21 telling us about it in 1989. Approximately a mile

22 from where the Spilotro brother's bodies were

23 recovered.

24 She related that she drove down there

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1 and picked Albert up. He got in the car. He was

2 dressed in blue work clothes and he was all dirty

3 and his clothes were dirty and he got in the car

4 and he started not so much speaking to her but

5 speaking. He was angry and telling her we --

6 using bad language and we -- Nicky, Tootsie and

7 Chickie, who were described to us as Nicky

8 Guzzino, Tootsie Palermo --

9 Q. Tootsie Palermo is Dominick Palermo?

10 A. Dominick Palermo.

11 Q. The man who is also a delegate to the

12 District Council?

13 A. Yes. And Chickie Roviero from northern

14 Indiana had just -- the night before had buried

15 the Spilotro brothers and that something had

16 occurred that night that frightened the three

17 individuals and they split up in the dark in what

18 is a wooded area. It's a very remote area.

19 Q. Let me stop you just so we are clear on

20 this. This is Ms. Tocco relating what her husband

21 told her when she picked him up?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Okay. Please continue.

24 A. And that they got split up, one or two

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1 people -- two people in the group had a

2 walkie-talkie. Albert Tocco didn't have a

3 walkie-talkie. The other two eventually left him

4 there.

5 He spent hours or all night in the

6 area. He couldn't get back until he found a phone

7 booth on U.S. 41 I believe it was, and that's when

8 he called his wife and she went down there to pick

9 him up.

10 They then proceeded to his sanitation

11 company -- first they went to Chickie Roviero's

12 house, Mrs. Tocco said, and knocked at the door

13 and Chickie Roviero was not there.

14 They then went to Albert Tocco's

15 sanitation company, and there were several calls

16 made to try to locate these individuals and they

17 were negative.

18 Mrs. Tocco then drove with her husband

19 back to their residence.

20 Q. Are you familiar, sir, with the

21 findings of the coroner's report with respect to

22 the Spilotro brothers?

23 A. Vaguely. I never saw the coroner's

24 report. There was some talk that the brothers

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1 were badly beaten. They were not shot or there

2 weren't any stab wounds, that they may possibly

3 have been buried alive.

4 Q. And just so the record is clear,

5 Ms. Tocco's testimony and information related --

6 that she related to you was that four people had

7 been involved in that, in the burial?

8 I just want to go over the names is

9 all.

10 A. I think I said three.

11 Q. I'm sorry. Mr. Tocco.

12 A. I'm sorry. Counting Albert Tocco.

13 THE HEARING OFFICER: Counting Albert is

14 four.

15 BY MR. THOMAS:

16 Q. Mr. Tocco, Albert Tocco. Who else?

17 A. Nicholas Guzzino, Dominick Palermo and

18 I think it's Albert Roviero, Chickie Roviero.

19 Q. I think I misspoke earlier when I made

20 reference to Mr. Guzzino as a delegate of District

21 Council. Did he have any LIUNA ties to your

22 knowledge?

23 A. Yes, he did.

24 Q. And what was that?

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1 A. I believe he was involved with the

2 Laborers Pension Board. He was a trustee on the

3 pension board and he was on the Local 5 Executive

4 Board.

5 Q. But not actually a delegate to the

6 District Council? Sorry.

7 A. I believe, to the best of my

8 knowledge. I never really got involved in that

9 portion of the Laborers union.

10 Q. You mentioned he was a trustee on the

11 pension fund. Based on your knowledge of

12 Mr. Guzzino and the testimony of Betty Tocco and

13 the conviction we are going to talk about later

14 on -- did Mr. Guzzino, by the way, have any

15 qualifications to be a trustee on a pension fund?

16 MR. CARMELL: Object.

17 BY THE WITNESS:

18 A. I have --

19 MR. CARMELL: I am going to object. That is

20 not within his --

21 THE HEARING OFFICER: If he was on, he was

22 on. That's all.

23 MR. THOMAS: I will do that through another

24 witness.

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